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Thread: COP For Dummies! Version 2.0

  1. #76

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    Not allowed to ask questions
    Last edited by YankeesSuck01; December 17th, 2005 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #77
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    PCS- program components- includes coreography, interprstation, and execution, basic skating skills.
    It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. A.B. Giamatti

  3. Default

    This is probably a stupid question, but here goes. SInce the new COP is a total of scores rather than a ranking, can two people tie?
    Lisa

    "Success isn't always measured by a Gold Medal".
    (Sandra Bezic)

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    Yankee's its all in my guide so I don't know why you're asking in here. Please read through it before asking to keep this thread from getting cluttered up.

    Brett's girl, it is totally possible to have a tie under COP. Last season's Skate America showed a prime example with 2 skaters in the ladies short having the exact same score. The only real tie-breaker there is rests with the long program score. If 2 skaters end up having the exact same point total in a competition, the skater with the higher long program score will receive the higher placement. If 2 skaters get the exact same score in both the short and the long program, well, I guess it's a tie. I haven't read anything in regards to if such a thing would happen. Although the odds that 2 skaters in any one discipline would get the exact same scores in each section is a bit stretching it. We probably have better chances of being hit by lightning. I know nothing else in regards to 2 skaters tying with the exact same score in both programs.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  5. #80

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    Sorry but I don't have 3 hours to weed through your guide to find the answers.

    This was a thread about the code so I thought this was the appropriate place to ask the question.
    Sue me.

    I'll be sure to stay out of your thread next time.

  6. #81

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    According to the isu website:

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/pa...m-item,00.html

    Tie-break Rules

    Segment
    If two or more skaters have the same rank, the Total Element Score will break the tie in the Short Program and the Program Component Score will break the tie in Free Skating. If these results are also equal, the competitors concerned will be considered tied.

    Event
    If two or more competitors (singles or couples) receive an equal total for all parts of the competition combined (final result), the best placement shall be decided on the basis of the best placing for Free Skating or Free Dance. If this is equal, the competitors concerned are tied.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeesSuck01
    Sorry but I don't have 3 hours to weed through your guide to find the answers.

    This was a thread about the code so I thought this was the appropriate place to ask the question.
    Sue me.

    I'll be sure to stay out of your thread next time.
    I don't understand how you would have to weed through this guide when both grade of execution and program component scores are sufficiently of bigger size and bolded right before their appropriate sections to stand out better for people looking for specifics. It doesn't even take an hour to read what I wrote from beginning to end. I'd comment more but I'm trying to be nice. It's all very organized, indented, and emphasized.

    ETA: Now that I've seen you edited your original post to change the fact what you asked for with a rude little "not allowed to ask questions" I'll be rude right back. This is a GUIDE THREAD not a ask me any little tidbit and expect them to be answered when they already are in the guide for all the world to see. How about taking the 2 minutes to skim through the BOLD AND CAPITALIZED TITLES to try and find what you're looking for on the first page. Or am I expecting too much from people?
    Last edited by KwanBoy23; December 18th, 2005 at 04:48 AM.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  8. #83

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    Thanks so much Kwanboy. hug Now I understand CoP a wee bit more than before. My questions is what does the numbers in bracket means? I know the numbers in paranthesis are the points.

    Level 1 (1.2) - Level 2 (1.5)[1] - Level 3 (1.8)[2] - Level 4 (2.4)[2]*


    ETA: I reread it again, so the brackets mean the number of features required for this level.

    Example: level 3 would require like a sit spin into Y spin done 3 or more revolutions each feature??? Could you explain that some more because level 3 and 4 has 2 required features each? Does this mean you add the 2 required features of level 3 plus the 2 required features of level 4 which makes 4 required features? Oh jeez! I think I just made myself even more kwanfused.
    Last edited by Crizzy; December 20th, 2005 at 12:35 AM.
    Keep It Rock n' Roll

  9. #84

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    I think I just made myself even more kwanfused.
    I'm there with you.
    Let's see if I make a sit spin (classical position), then turn into an outside edge sit spin (the same position), then do a y spin into a scratch spin - what level will this be? I think a level 3 (right/ wrong)?

    And a very stuid question a feature= a position? Sorry if you already explained it.

    I think we should have online cop test

  10. #85

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    There are plenty of people asking questions in this thread but you only flipped out on me.

    You were rude first and I don't sit and take shiat from people so... (Fill in the blank)

  11. Default More COP rules

    Here are the non-jump elements in singles skating that determine the levels:

    Step sequences:

    1. Variety of (Complex for level 4) turns and steps throughout (compulsory)
    2. 3 (4 for level 4) changes of skating or rotational direction
    3. Change (quick changes for level 4) of speed (not because of a stop)
    4. Modest (full use of - for level 4) upper body movement
    5. Quick changes from steps to turns

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (4 features)

    Spiral sequences:

    1. 3 spiral positions on both feet (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside (including backward inside)
    2. 1 difficult variation of position
    3. Unsupported change of edge in a spiral - 3 seconds hold after the change
    4. Unsupported change of position or direction maintaining the spiral position
    5. Unsupported position with the leg sideways or forward
    6. Free leg in a total split position - sideways or forward, one arm hold possible

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (5 features)

    Spin in one position with no change of foot:

    1. 1 (2 for level 4) difficult variation (compulsory)
    2. Backward entrance
    3. Change of edge

    Level 2 (1 feature), Level 3 (2 features), Level 4 (2 features)

    Layback spin:

    1. 1 change of position backwards-sideways or reverse, at least 3 revolutions in each position
    2. Clear increasing of speed after establishing the basic position
    3. Difficult variation of arm hold and/or body or free leg position
    4. Biellmann position after 8 revolutions in layback spin (SP only)

    Level 2 (1 feature), Level 3 (2 features), Level 4 (3 features)

    Spin in one position with change of foot:

    1. 2 difficult variations, including change of foot (each foot counts separate for the same or different variation)
    2. Backward entrance or variation of flying entrance (not regular flying camel)
    3. Change of edge (on both feet counts twice)
    4. Both directions immediately following each other
    5. Balance in regards to the amount of revolutions in each variation and on both feet

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (4 features)

    Spin combo without change of foot:

    1. 1 (2 for level 4) difficult variation
    2. Backward entrance or variation of flying entrance (not regular flying camel)
    3. All 3 positions and at least 2 changes of position (all 3 positions and at least 3 changes compulsory for level 4)
    4. Change of edge
    5. Balance in regards to the amount of revolutions in each position

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (4 features)

    Spin combo with change of foot:

    1. 2 difficult variations including change of foot (2 variations on one foot must be different, the same difficult variation on both feet counts twice)
    2. Change of edge (on both feet counts twice)
    3. All 3 positions and at least 3 changes of positions (all 3 positions and at least 4 changes of position compulsory for level 4)
    4. Backward entrance or variation of flying entrance (not regular flying camel)
    5. Both directions immediately following each other
    6. Balance in regards to the amount of revolutions in each variation and on both feet

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (4 features)

    Flying spin with no change of foot and no change of position:

    1. 1 difficult variation (2 variations compulsory for level 4)
    2. Change of edge
    3. Landing on the same foot as take off
    4. Difficult variation of air or landing position

    Level 2 (1 feature), Level 3 (2 features), Level 4 (3 features)

  12. Default

    Step Sequences

    Definition of turns and steps:

    Basic: Turns - Mohawks, Three turns
    Steps - Progressives, Chasses

    Variety: Turns - Must include three different methods of turning; ex. three turns, twizzles, brackets, etc.
    Steps - Must include three different steps; ex. progressives, toe steps, chasses, etc.

    Complex: Turns - Must include more than three different turns; ex. brackets, counters, rockers, twizzles, choctaws, etc.
    Steps - Must include three different steps (ex. running steps, progressives, toe steps, chasses, etc.) used in multiple directions

    Turns and steps must be balanced in their distribution throughout the sequence.

    Spiral sequences

    Definition of spiral variations:

    Simple variation of position: A spiral position with limited leg or arm movement, ex. bending of the free leg, bending of skating leg, changes in arm positions, turning of the head (all of these not affecting the main body core position and independent from skating edge or direction). A simple variation doesn't increase the difficulty level.

    Difficult variation of position: These are variations that affect the main body core position and balance; ex. twisting the upper body, bending or pulling the upper body towards the skating leg, obtaining the Biellmann position. Only these variations can increase the level.

    Spins

    Definition of spin variations:

    Simple variation: A simple variation of position is a movement of a body part, leg, arm, hand or head, which enhances but does not change the basic position of the main body core. A simple variation doesn't increase the level.

    Difficult variation: A difficult variation is a movement of a body part, leg, arm, hand or head, which requires more physical strength or flexibility and that, has an affect on the balance of the main body core. Only these variations can increase the level.

    Examples of difficult variations of spin positions:

    Broken leg sit spin, camel spin with the upper body turned upwards approx. 180 degrees, doughnut spin, Biellmann spin, upper body bent towards the ice in upright spin, etc.

    Spins in both directions: Execution of spins in both directions (clockwise and counter clockwise) that immediately follow each other will be rewarded by counting this as an additional feature in all levels. A minimum of 3 revolutions in each direction is required. A spin executed in both directions (clockwise and counter clockwise) as above is considered as one spin.

  13. #88
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    Incidently, these programs are worth the same amount of points.

    3Lp
    3Lz/3T
    3F/2Lp/2Lp
    2A
    3S/2Lp
    3F
    3Lz

    3T
    3Lz/3Lp
    3F/2Lp/2Lp
    2A
    3S/2Lp
    3F
    3Lz

    3T
    3Lz/2Lp
    3F/2Lp/2Lp
    2A
    3S/3Lp
    3F
    3Lz

    3Lp
    3Lz/2Lp
    3F/2Lp/2Lp
    2A
    3S/3T
    3F
    3Lz

    These 4 Programs are worth the same amount of base points even though the fourth program has the least difficult 3/3 and the second one having the most difficult.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

  14. #89

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    Thank you new_europe2006. I finally understood what's with the features.

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    This is really in need of an overhaul with the changed to the rules from this season. I have a job interview tomorrow (on Monday) and I might possibly be working a lot soon so I'm not sure when I'll have it updated. Sorry for letting it rot this season but I have not been as up-to-date as I could have been due mostly to the lack of interest in most of the events. (I've pretty much only been paying attention to the events with Yu-Na or Mao in them). I'll see what I can do about getting this guide updated with the changes.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  16. Default

    I dont know if this was posted yet...but theres a big rule change with the spiral sequences, this will probably make it much nicer for people to watch...

    So now youre only allowed to do a maximum of 3 spiral positions in your sequence, and a COE spiral counts as two posittions.


    I think its a stupid change, but whatever. I just dont really understand how youre supposed to get a level four wiht only 3 positions?
    Beauty Passion Fire

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    There are more than just spiral changes, there are a LOT of rule changes...and those need to be added on quickly.
    It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. A.B. Giamatti

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by trpls4me View Post
    I dont know if this was posted yet...but theres a big rule change with the spiral sequences, this will probably make it much nicer for people to watch...

    So now youre only allowed to do a maximum of 3 spiral positions in your sequence, and a COE spiral counts as two posittions.


    I think its a stupid change, but whatever. I just dont really understand how youre supposed to get a level four wiht only 3 positions?
    COE, then a side leg position into a skid Features (1,2,3,4,6)(Sasha Cohen) or letting go of the leg (1,2,3,5,6)(Shizuka)

    It has 5 features and only 3 positions
    Spiral sequences:

    1. 3 spiral positions on both feet (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside (including backward inside)
    2. 1 difficult variation of position
    3. Unsupported change of edge in a spiral - 3 seconds hold after the change
    4. Unsupported change of position or direction maintaining the spiral position
    5. Unsupported position with the leg sideways or forward
    6. Free leg in a total split position - sideways or forward, one arm hold possible

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (5 features)
    All we need is love, music, and the KWEEN!

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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkphoenix View Post
    COE, then a side leg position into a skid Features (1,2,3,4,6)(Sasha Cohen) or letting go of the leg (1,2,3,5,6)(Shizuka)

    It has 5 features and only 3 positions
    Spiral sequences:

    1. 3 spiral positions on both feet (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside (including backward inside)
    2. 1 difficult variation of position
    3. Unsupported change of edge in a spiral - 3 seconds hold after the change
    4. Unsupported change of position or direction maintaining the spiral position
    5. Unsupported position with the leg sideways or forward
    6. Free leg in a total split position - sideways or forward, one arm hold possible

    Level 2 (2 features), Level 3 (3 features), Level 4 (5 features)
    These are the old rules. Spiral sequences this year (and last year, actually), need only 4 features for Level 4.

    The features are now as follows:
    1) 3 spiral pos. with change of foot (mandatory for SP), forward & backward, inside & outside
    2) 1 difficult variation of position
    3) Second difficult variation on a different foot than the first one
    4) Change of edge in a spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)
    5) Unsupported change of free leg position or direction of skating maintaining the spiral (3 seconds hold before and after the change)
    6) Free leg in a total split position sideways or forward , one or both arms hold possible


    Your example ("COE, then a side leg position into a skid Features (1,2,3,4,6)(Sasha Cohen) or letting go of the leg (1,2,3,5,6)(Shizuka)"), if I'm interpreting it correctly, doesn't quite work because you can only have three spiral positions (a COE is two, and a skid would also have to be two) and you must have spirals on two different feet. Furthermore, Shizuka's spiral isn't quite legit anymore because you CAN NOT perform a Change of Edge and Change of Position at the same time for credit anymore -- there must be at least three seconds held after the COE before the COP.

    A way for a skater to get Level 4 next season would be ...

    Right Back Outside Y-spiral in full split + Change of direction to Right Forward Outside with same position (holding 3 seconds before and after change) + step to Left Back Outside Charlotte
    Features Earned: 1) #5, 2) #6, 3) #1, 4) #2

    ... for example. Level 3's can easily be obtained by using one change of edge spirals and a difficult variation on the other foot (for example, a RFI + RFO change of edge spiral and then an LBO fan spiral with some difficult upper body position -- if the change of edge is done in a full split, you've bumped yourself up to a Level 4).
    "Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds." ~ Albert Einstein

  20. Default

    also, theres more rule changes coming..theres a lot- in footowkr and stuff

    one thign that stuck out, was omnce these new changes apply, the fan spiral(side split "sasha" spiral) nobody can do thsoe anymore...well they can but they dont count anymore

    yay
    Beauty Passion Fire

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    Default GOE vs. Quality Point Questions

    Here is the line item for Mao Asada's 3A at GP Finals.
    Base GOE Quality Points
    1. 3A 7.50 - 0.80 1 -1 0 -1 -1 1 -1 -1 -1 -1 - - 6.70

    OK - What is the difference between the Grade of Execution (and who assigns it?) which is -.80 in this case. And the Quality Points given by each judge, in the case 0 and -1.

    And this is what the ISU says about the GOE:

    "The element score is composed of the “Base Value” of each element, identified by the Technical Panel and the so-called “Grade of Execution (GOE)” that is monitored by the Judges. "

    "So-called"???? How can a judging system have a major compoment of calculation be "so-called"? Monitored? Who grades the movement since it is only monitored by the judges?

    "The Judges then grade the quality of the element within the range of +3 to -3 and increments of 1. The sum of the Base Value added to the trimmed mean of the Grade of Execution (GOE) of each performed element will form the total element score and the sum of all element scores will form the Technical Score."

    So what is the GOE? The number where Mao's -0.80 is? Or the 0's and -1's?

    And do you compute it across the line?

    Thank you, Mr. Kwan Boy!
    Last edited by SeamusMalcolm; December 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 PM. Reason: Add more in ...

  22. #97
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    What this means, well, the easiest way to put it is this.

    Judges can only mark the GOE (i.e. quality) of an element in increments of 1. A judge, for instance, can't award a +1.5 or a +0.75. It must be a whole integer between -3 and +3.

    After the random selection, the GOE is made by taking the total amount of GOE points and dividing it among how many judges were used.

    Using the above line, I can only theorize that the total amount of GOE's awarded for her jump were -5 or -6. Divided by the seven judges that would yield a -0.71 or a -0.85. COP is rounding up or down. No other explanation for it. Hope that answers you question.

    The Technical Specialist (caller) has no say-so in the GOE marks that the judges award the skaters.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanBoy23 View Post
    What this means, well, the easiest way to put it is this.

    Judges can only mark the GOE (i.e. quality) of an element in increments of 1. A judge, for instance, can't award a +1.5 or a +0.75. It must be a whole integer between -3 and +3.

    After the random selection, the GOE is made by taking the total amount of GOE points and dividing it among how many judges were used.

    Using the above line, I can only theorize that the total amount of GOE's awarded for her jump were -5 or -6. Divided by the seven judges that would yield a -0.71 or a -0.85. COP is rounding up or down. No other explanation for it. Hope that answers you question.

    The Technical Specialist (caller) has no say-so in the GOE marks that the judges award the skaters.
    So whenever you see the GOE, that column is the "answer" to whatever formula they use to average the -3 to +3 scores. They are not separate scores ... to be calculated both as part of the line item (executed element)? Do I have that right?

  24. #99
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    I think that is it. If I read your question correctly. The individual +'s and -'s are averaged to give you that first GOE number. Individually they really don't mean much (except which judges are smoking crack that day!)
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanBoy23 View Post
    I think that is it. If I read your question correctly. The individual +'s and -'s are averaged to give you that first GOE number. Individually they really don't mean much (except which judges are smoking crack that day!)
    Do you know if the columns are consistent in being assigned to the same judge in each competitor? ie - column #1 is Judge XYZ from Uzbekistan in all competitors so you can at least compare their scores across the board for all competitors, even if we don't know it is the judge from Uzbekistan ...

    I also noticed when trying to come up with the GOE by averaging the judges scores from the GP Final there could be a HUGE difference in the number based on what scores are dropped. (Is it three? They use seven scores and there are 10 judges? At leaset there were 10 GOE scores.) Dropping two 2s is very different from dropping two zeros. Easily the difference in a medal placing. Why don't they drop the lowest and the highest ... that's always guarded against the over and underscorer and is more statistically correct towards an accurate average (or mean?). I'm not a math person ...

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