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Thread: COP For Dummies! Version 2.0

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanBoy23
    Ok but how do I do that? LMAO! Oh my. Maybe I can put up a table of contents in the first thread and you can edit it to hyperlink to the other posts? I know html, but thans when working on an entire page of my own stuff, not trying to link to vertain parts of a page or what not
    I could do that, sure. You could also do it. You see the number next to each post? (this one will say "#51" on the right side of the post.) Just right click that to get the link. Then, just link as normal. For example, I'll link here to the post I'm quoting from you:

    KwanBoy23's post

    But I don't mind doing it if you want, after you've made a table of contents. It's up to you.

  2. #52
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    Also, I made an example one just for you at the forum feedback forum a few days ago. I meant to PM you but I got caught up in the Thanksgiving hullabaloo. It's quite simple. Just follow Heather's instruction.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

  3. #53
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    Hey Kwancierto, it would be nice if you edited out those values now. They just make the thread pages so LOOOOOOOOONG!!!!

    I'm going to edit out stuff I added to the guide to try and keep the thread neat and clean.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  4. #54
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    Hi KwanBoy23. Excellent resource you've made here! Very detailed and well written. I love those book covers too!

  5. #55
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    Does anybody want a free copy of Skating for Dummies (the first one)? I have it and never look at it. I'd be happy to ship it wherever no charge. If anyone's interested PM me your address.

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    Default Kwanboy's Book

    Great stuff Kwanboy!! I just realized this thread was a joke - I thought it was a real book. I think you should send it off to the Dummies' publishers. They might be interested.

  7. #57

    Default CoP Logistics

    Couple of questions . . .

    1. Judge Selection: Are the scores always from the same anonymous judges? For example, scores are always taken from Judges A, B, D, and E for ALL skaters. Or is the score selection random for each skater? Example: Johnny gets scores from Judges A, C, E, F while Billy gets scores from Judges A, B, D, and G.

    2. How quickly do the judges know what element was called? It seems to me that judges are giving negative GOE for triple jumps that are doubled because they assume a double jump is a flawed triple. However, if the element is called as a double, skaters are being twice penalized -- once for the downgrading of the element and one for the negative GOE. That doesn't seem quite right to me. The only flaw in a doubled jump may be the fact that it was originally intended to be a triple, but from a GOE standpoint it could potentially be a +3 double. Knowing how an element was called would be especially pertinent in the whole lutz vs. flip controversy. A lutz with a change to inside edge entrance may be called as a lutz and deserve a negative GOE, but a judge may see a clean flip and award positive GOE.

    3. Has anyone ever received +3 on a jump? I have yet to find one in the results I have studied. In my opinion, GOE should be 0, -1, -2, -3. The base value should stand for a cleanly executed element. Isn't that why they have different values to begin with? A triple axel should score higher than a double axel or a triple toe loop, and its base value reflects that. Awarding +1, +2, and +3 only "over-rewards" the skater. Difficult entrances, air positions, etc. should be accounted for in skating skills, choreography, and other areas.
    Last edited by sportsbodywork; November 28th, 2005 at 01:01 AM.

  8. #58

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    If at first you don't succeed.....so I'm tryin' again

    In pairs, if both skaters fall on the same element, is there a -1 deduction for the team or a -1 deduction for each skater?

  9. #59
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    This thread is definitely not a joke. It's a quick reference for anyone who wishes to understand COP in the basic mechanics of it and how it works without having to read through about 4 or 5 ISU Communications looking for all the terms and definitions, most of the time in so much jibberish even I have a hard time understanding it. LOL.

    On to the questions!!!!

    1. Judge Selection: Are the scores always from the same anonymous judges? For example, scores are always taken from Judges A, B, D, and E for ALL skaters. Or is the score selection random for each skater? Example: Johnny gets scores from Judges A, C, E, F while Billy gets scores from Judges A, B, D, and G.
    As far as we have been informed, the computer selects what judges count right before the event starts and stays that way through the entire competition. Although this is only for the Technical Elements and which judges GOE's count. PCS is an average of ALL the judges on the panel. There is no high and low toss out from verifying from the Protocol Sheets. If judges A, B, D, and E are selected they will be selected throughout that entire portion of the event.
    2. How quickly do the judges know what element was called? It seems to me that judges are giving negative GOE for triple jumps that are doubled because they assume a double jump is a flawed triple. However, if the element is called as a double, skaters are being twice penalized -- once for the downgrading of the element and one for the negative GOE. That doesn't seem quite right to me. The only flaw in a doubled jump may be the fact that it was originally intended to be a triple, but from a GOE standpoint it could potentially be a +3 double. Knowing how an element was called would be especially pertinent in the whole lutz vs. flip controversy. A lutz with a change to inside edge entrance may be called as a lutz and deserve a negative GOE, but a judge may see a clean flip and award positive GOE.
    Judges are unaware what the element is called. They are supposed to grade the element as they would see it if it was completed cleany. Double penalizing already takes place. You get negative GOE's for under-rotating a triple and the base value will go down if the under-rotation is serious enough to call it as a double. Even a jump with only 1/4 of a turn cheat on the landing should get a -1 on the GOE. Judges are trained to judge the element performed and it's quality, not what the element is. And a triple turned into a double most likely will not be called a double with positive GOE due to the fact that there will be a likely flaw in the air-born position and rotation, making less than 2 phases of the jump as good or better making it impossible to get even a +1 GOE on a triple that was doubled (not called a double but turned into one).
    3. Has anyone ever received +3 on a jump? I have yet to find one in the results I have studied. In my opinion, GOE should be 0, -1, -2, -3. The base value should stand for a cleanly executed element. Isn't that why they have different values to begin with? A triple axel should score higher than a double axel or a triple toe loop, and its base value reflects that. Awarding +1, +2, and +3 only "over-rewards" the skater. Difficult entrances, air positions, etc. should be accounted for in skating skills, choreography, and other areas.
    No skater so far has received a +3 on a jump so far because it's incredibly hard to do so. The only way this is possible is by having the jump take-off with little to no preperation, having excellent (superior) technique in ALL FOUR of the jump phases, as well as the possibility of a difficult variation in the jump somehow. The only jump from memory I can think of in history that could get a +3 is Brian Boitano's triple lutz out of the spread eagle with a hand over the head. He had excellence in every part of the jump, a difficult and unexpected take-off and a extremely difficult in-air position.
    The +1 to +3 for a jump does not over-reward the skater if they do them above average. What would be the point in adding points to the Program Components in regards to the performance and execution of a Technical Element? That would make no sense! Also figuring in that most skaters receive on average a 0 to -1 clearly shows that the majority of skaters have a hard time landing a jump just to an average level, let alone being superior at it.

    And in response to the pairs question, if EITHER partner falls on a side by side jump the error amount is for the total score. If they perform side-by-side triple toe loops and one nails it perfectly and the other one falls on their rear the element will receive a -3 GOE.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  10. #60

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    Thanks KwanBoy for the info! I appreciate your expertise with CoP.

    The only part I challenge is the necessity of positive GOE for jumps. A clean jump should be given its base value in my opinion. Adding points to PCS for a technical element makes sense to me. Taking your example of Boitano's 'Tano Lutz', you mention the spread eagle entrance, unexpected take-off, and difficult air-position. Each of those things could be evaluated as expressive, interpretive, and/or dramatic choreographic elements, which (in my mind) seem to fit well in the PCS. However, I can understand your position as well. In the ideal world, I imagine every skater strives to seemlessly integrate the technical with the artistic.

    Thanks again for clarifying this new system.

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    Also, in addition... in pairs.

    If a team performs side-by-sides with one partner jumping a triple and the other a double, the whole element will be counted as a side-by-side double.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

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    See this is why yur my editor Kwancierto! Always catching the little things I missed.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  13. #63

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    Kwanboy23

    I'm still confused. If one of the pair falls on a side by side jump is there a -1 deduction for the fall along with the -3 GOE?

    What happens when both fall?

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    Hi! Hope this helps...

    Quote Originally Posted by ISU.org Special Regulations - Single & Pair Skating, Rule 353, Page 48

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168617-185835-80283-0-file,00.pdf]

    Deductions are applied for each violation as follows:
    • time violation - 1.0 for every 5 seconds lacking or in excess;
    • music violation - 1.0 for vocal music;
    • illegal element violation - 2.0 for every illegal element;
    • costume and prop violation - 1.0;
    • falls -1.0 for every fall (of one or both competitors in Pair Skating); for interpretation of this Rule, a fall is defined as the loss of control by a skater resulting in both blades leaving the ice and the skater landing immobile (event momentarily);
    • deductions will be applied for interruption to the program: -1.0 for 11 - 20
    • seconds interruption, -2.0 for 21 - 30 seconds interruption etc.
    Mind you this was the rule before the rule change of the way falls were identified. There is now another definition for a fall but I think this is still the rule for deductions of "falls." So, it seems that regardless of whether one or two falls, you not only get a -3.0 GOE but a -1.0 deduction.

    In my opinion, I think that if one falls, there should be a 1.0 deduction with -3 GOE, but if both fall, there should be a 1.5 deduction along with -3 GOE.
    Last edited by kwancierto de aranjuez; November 30th, 2005 at 03:51 AM.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

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    Quote Originally Posted by ISU.org Communication No. 1319, Section I-Rule Changes, Page 11: Rule 353

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    Deductions are applied for each violation as follows:
    • falls -1.0 for every fall (of one or both competitors in Pair Skating); for interpretation of this Rule, a fall is defined as the loss of control by a skater resulting in both blades leaving the ice and/or any part of the body core or both hands or one hand and one knee touches the ice for stabilization.
    Oh... here is the change on the identification of a fall. Last season, Michelle didn't have a fall in the 2002 Olympics. This season, she had a fall in the Olympics. Figures.
    Last edited by kwancierto de aranjuez; November 30th, 2005 at 04:01 AM.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

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    Thank you very much for this guide! I finally got around to reading it. I was confused about a couple of things and you cleared that right up. I've never bothered to look at the ISU hoopla... it's just a confusing mess. They do it purposely to make us feel dumb! And yay for Foamy! That squirrely wrath just brightens my day! Your covers are awesome! You should actually look into doing an expanded guide (unless there already is one) and cashing in! Keep up the excellent work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by billob
    Kwanboy23

    I'm still confused. If one of the pair falls on a side by side jump is there a -1 deduction for the fall along with the -3 GOE?

    What happens when both fall?
    In pairs if one of the two fall on a side by side element its the exact same negative GOE and deduction to PCS as if both had fallen. If they do side by side triple toe loops and the guy falls, the element is ranked -3 GOE with a -1.0 deduction to PCS for a fall. If they do side by side triple toe loops and they both fall, the element is ranked -3 GOE with a -1.0 deduction to PCS for a fall.

    And yes Synn, fear the Squirrelly Wrath. But also beware the pills that I'm popping they go poppity pop and in hy head of insanity I see red flurry dots! Glad I helped clear some things up. The ISU made understanding the system more confusing than it really is. I think they just like to do that!
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  18. #68

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    About the vocal violation, if a skater use vocal music he'll get only 1.0 ded? Or is it 1.0 for each word or smth like that?
    I mean, if I were a skater and that would be the only ded. I'll get, I'll use vocal music - after all skaters have a fall and misses few landings and get a medal so a -1.0 doesn't seem that unreasonable to catch up in other aspects of your skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marie23
    About the vocal violation, if a skater use vocal music he'll get only 1.0 ded? Or is it 1.0 for each word or smth like that?
    I mean, if I were a skater and that would be the only ded. I'll get, I'll use vocal music - after all skaters have a fall and misses few landings and get a medal so a -1.0 doesn't seem that unreasonable to catch up in other aspects of your skating.
    In CoP, every little points count so why give away a point. MK lost thebronze at Worlds by less than 1 point.
    - Kay d'Aranjuez


    "When I feel like I'm in a hut, it's the venti things in life that are important, like riding a bicycle built for two with a friend while well-padded or drinking espresso with my non-kidnapped baby niece."
    • Living My Life Like Its Golden

  20. #70

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    Putting a hand down counts as a fall?

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    If it appears that the majority of the skater's weight is put over the hand to keep them from falling, then yes, it is considered a fall. If your hand goes down real fast and back up, no, it would be considered a slight touch-down with a -1 GOE.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanBoy23
    If it appears that the majority of the skater's weight is put over the hand to keep them from falling, then yes, it is considered a fall. If your hand goes down real fast and back up, no, it would be considered a slight touch-down with a -1 GOE.
    Thanks, love the cop for dummies picture. They should market that book.lol

  23. #73

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    If someone could shed some light for me...

    Does a fall impact the PCS at all? I know they get -GOE, but shouldn't it also affect the PCS?

  24. #74
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    A Fall impacts the PCS by a clear-cut -1.00 deduction to the PCS automatically for every fall in a program. It is possible to also affect the Performance/Execution marks as well as Interpretation. It is not set in stone to affect them but it is possible.
    "I also want millions of dollars & for Michelle to skate forever & world peace..."
    ~ aaronts

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    Thank you SO much!

    "Look at the face! I love it! I love it!" - Dick Button commenting on Michelle's "Aranjuez" LP at the 2003 Worlds

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