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Thread: Facts & fiction on the "birther" issue

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    There is nothing in the Constitution and/or in rulings by the Supreme Court (whose purpose it is to uphold the Constitution) that support your definition.

    This particular definition of "natural born" seems to have been invented rather recently. Basically, at about the time it appeared that Obama would be elected President.
    Go and read Article II Section I where the Framers specifically state "natural born citizen."

    Question: Why is the word OR used between "natural born citizen" and "citizen?"
    Answer: Because they're not the same thing.

    A Citizen is defined by statute, by the 14th amendment. The only permutation excluded from the 14th is that for Natural Born Citizen. That's why Article II differentiates Natural Born Citizen from Citizen. If Obama was born Hawaii, his father being Kenyan only makes him a statutory citizen as his status defined by the 14th.

    Obama is a dual citizen. He admitted it himself. He has never been a natural born citizen.
    Last edited by Tarynn@Elissa'smom; November 24th, 2009 at 10:24 AM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    She was a natural-born citizen because she was born in the U.S.
    The status of her parents was and is irrelevant.
    No she was a natural born citizen because she was born to two US citizen parents.

    There is a difference between being a US citizen and a natural born US citizen.

  3. #78
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    Yes, and someone needs to explain this to all the conservatives who have been saying that Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal should run for President.
    Since BOTH of his parents had recently arrived from India, they obviously could not have been naturalized at the time of his birth.

    From a Jindal bio:
    Quote:
    Piyush Jindal was born on June 10, 1971, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, to Agarwal Indian immigrants Amar and Raj Jindal, who had recently arrived for Amar to attend graduate school at Louisiana State University.

    In actuality, Bobby Jindal was born on U.S. soil and thus is a natural born citizen, eligible to be President. The status of his parents does not matter.
    Bobby Jindal is a US citizen, but not a natural born citizen if his parents didn't become citizens before he was born. People have said he should run if he can prove his parents became citizens before his birth.

  4. #79

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    Some people seem to get caught up in the "Natural Born" thing. In actuality, if read thoroughly:
    Constitutional provisions
    Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States:
    “ No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. ”
    Pretty clear, no?
    Also, the notion that the blood of a foreign father runs through someone's veins thus rendering them not eligible to hold the office of President is just ridiculous and antiquated. This seems like a throw-back to the days of women being property and men's bloodlines were what determined class, wealth, power, property, and status. Its just a foolish Patriarchal notion from the past.

  5. #80
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    Some people seem to get caught up in the "Natural Born" thing. In actuality, if read thoroughly
    There has been much debate over what constitutes a natural born citizen. Much of the debate has been misinformed calling the concept of natural born an obscure technicality or an oversight by the writers of the Constitution. Neither of these characterizations are true.

    Many times the true meaning of constitutional wording must be determined by looking at the era and the circumstances and, in some cases, terminology in other sections of the constitution, the inclusion or exclusion of supporting verbiage and even writings other than the Constitution.

    Article 2, section 1 of the Constitution states, "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of president; neither shall any person be eligible who shall not attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States."

    The addition of a grandfather clause in this paragraph says a lot as to the meaning of natural born. The first thing it says is that being born in the US is not enough to be natural born, otherwise the grandfather clause would not be necessary. The Framers of the Constitution having been born in the US wanted to be eligible for the presidency, but most were the children of British subjects. Knowing that that eliminated them from being natural born and thus from eligibility, they included the grandfather clause which expired when the last person alive at the time of the ratification of the Constitution died. So, being a native born citizen is not the same as being natural born. If it were the Framers would not have included the clause.

    When asked to define natural born citizen, John Bingham, the author of the 14th amendment which extended the Bill of Rights to former slaves, stated, "Any human born to parents who are US citizens and are under no other jurisdiction or authority." The Naturalization Act of 1790, also passed by this congress, declared "And the children of citizens of the US shall be considered as natural born, provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been a resident of the US." Neither of these definitions, one from US law, mentions birthplace, only the parents' citizenship.

    This concept of citizenship by blood as opposed to citizenship by geography is a concept with a long history in British common law. A law passed in 1677 says that natural born citizens are those persons born to British citizens, including those born overseas. Alexander Porter wrote an article over 100 years ago in which he declares that the framers drew upon this difference in the law of heredity and territorial allegiance to define a third class of citizen applicable only to the eligibility to hold the office of president. According to Morse, "the framers thought it wise to provide that the president should at least be the child of citizens owing allegiance only to the US at the time of birth." He goes on to say that the the eligibility of the president "was scarcely intended to bar the children of American citizens, whether born at sea or in foreign territory."

    The concept of citizenship by blood also precludes the equation of natural born with native born as the latter strictly demands geographical requirements.

    Many argue that Barack Obama was eligible to be a state senator and a US senator and could not suddenly be ineligible to be president, but that is exactly the case. If this premise were true, Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California, would also be eligible to be president, and it is established that he is not.

    Barack Obama has proudly and publicly stated that his father was a citizen of Kenya. We know his mother was eighteen years old when he was born. These two facts make Obama ineligible to be president. No birth certificate is needed as proof and it doesn't matter at all where Obama was born. His father's non-citizenship is all the law requires. He is ineligible from the beginning, meaning he is NOT the president and can be removed from office without any impeachment or trial, it requires only a ruling by the SCOTUS. He is, in fact, a usurper, a pretender or a fake.

    So why has Obama been shepherded into our highest elected office regardless of the fact that he is, according to his own statements and the law of the land, ineligible for that office? It is because those whose responsibility it is to insure the eligibility of the president, the SCOTUS has chosen in violation of the law not to override the voters that voted for Obama. They are cowards who violate their sworn oath rather than make an unpopular ruling. We are no longer a republic ruled by law, but instead have become a democracy with rules made up as we go along, never to be written as law.

    In each and every case dismissed by the SCOTUS challenging Obama's eligibility the reason for dismissal had nothing to do with the merits of the plaintiff's claim. Not once did the SCOTUS rule Obama was eligible or even consider whether he was or not, rather they dismissed each case on the technicality of plaintiff's lack of standing to file the case.

    Also, the notion that the blood of a foreign father runs through someone's veins thus rendering them not eligible to hold the office of President is just ridiculous and antiquated. This seems like a throw-back to the days of women being property and men's bloodlines were what determined class, wealth, power, property, and status. Its just a foolish Patriarchal notion from the past.
    The Constitution is the law of the land and is neither ridiculous or antiquated. The provisions put forth by the Framers had nothing to do with one's class, wealth or power.
    Last edited by Tarynn@Elissa'smom; November 24th, 2009 at 12:09 PM.

  6. #81

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    READ again!
    Constitutional provisions
    Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States:
    “ No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. ”
    President Obama IS a citizen of the US. The Consitution does NOT state AND a Citizen of the United States. It states OR.

    Some of The Founding Fathers were also slave owners. At the time the Constitution was written, slavery was legal, women were property and not to be considered CITIZENS will all rights afforded to real citizens, like voting. At the time of the first Continental Congress, property, power and wealth were indeed passed down through the patriarchial line. Women were still subjected to arranged marriages and had no rights what-so-ever. Sounds antiquated to me.
    The Constitution is indeed a fluid document and that is why the Founding Fathers included a strong Judicial Branch in the government in order to interpret the document as the country developed.

    Reading the diatribe above, I wonder if you believe that The Supreme Court were cowards and violated their oath when they stopped the vote count in Florida, thus declaring George Bush the President Elect in 2000. I have combed through the Constitution and have not found a provision for allowing the SCOTUS to decide who becomes President under those type of odd circumstances.

  7. #82

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    Obama was conceived in the United States, his mother was born in the United States. Obama was born in the United States. This makes him a U.S. citizen. Now knock off this stupid crazyness.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    People have said he should run if he can prove his parents became citizens before his birth.
    Any person who has said that is just as incorrect as you are.

    Bobby Jindal is a natural-born citizen (and thus eligible to run for President)
    because he was born on U.S. soil. He doesn't have to "prove" anything;
    it's a matter of public record

    Actually, I hope that Jindal DOES run for president; it would be very interesting to see how many "birthers" would suddenly amend their definition
    of "natural born" ...

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    Many argue that Barack Obama was eligible to be a state senator and a US senator and could not suddenly be ineligible to be president, but that is exactly the case.
    I have not seen anyone argue this. The requirements for senator (state and/or U.S.) have nothing to do with the requirements for president.
    Even the age requirements are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    If this premise were true, Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California, would also be eligible to be president, and it is established that he is not.
    The reason that Arnold isn't eligible has nothing to do with your idiotic premise. It has everything to do with the fact that he was born in Austria,
    with neither parent being a U.S. citizen.

  10. #85

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    I wonder if anyone here at MKF who buys this natural-born vs. citizen junk would have the guts to go up to Michelle Kwan (child of immigrants) and tell her that she's not a true American citizen and therefore unfit to hold the office of POTUS, and then argue with her (and her poli-sci degree) if she disagrees. Hell, they probably think "American Beats Kwan" was perfectly acceptable.

  11. #86

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    Washington Times Runs Anti-Obama Birther Ad

    And used the See/Hear/Speak No Evil monkeys! How appropriate.

    From Tea Party to Treason
    Tea-party style activism has taken some nutty turns before—the Hitler references, the Holocaust pictures. But Walter Fitzpatrick III may be about to push anti-Obama activism to new heights. On Tuesday, he plans to walk into the Monroe County courthouse in tiny Madisonville, Tennessee, and attempt to convince a local grand jury to indict the president on treason and fraud charges.

    Fitzpatrick is one of those alternate-reality Americans who believe that Barack Obama is actually one Barry Soetoro, a man who is not an American citizen and thus ineligible to serve as president. Fitzpatrick claims that since March, he has been trying to get federal prosecutors in Tennessee to bring treason charges against the president. All that effort earned him, however, was a visit from the Secret Service.

    But then Fitzpatrick evidently discovered that Monroe County has rather liberal rules about grand juries. In most places, only a local prosecutor can present evidence to a grand jury and request an indictment. In Monroe County, any private citizen can show up with a petition and seek an indictment. The most common initiators of such proceedings are usually victims of robberies or assaults, however, not activists trying to unseat the president.

    Fitzpatrick tried this once already, filing a brief in late August that read, in part:

    OBAMA-SOETORO IS MY SWORN ENEMY! - And as there were TRAITORS to Italy in Caesars day, I report to this GRAND JURY with force and authority there are senior military officers no more obedient to the CONSTITUTION than their criminal DICTATOR, OBAMA-SOETORO.

  12. #87

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    I viewed the youtube video mentioned in the Nobama thread that allegedly proves Obama's Certificate of Live Birth is a fake.

    What a bunch of hooey.
    Reading the comments below the video made me a little sick. Its really a shame that people believe this nonsense and think its okay to call the POTUS and his wife such horrible names. Not to mention there are people out there who think he killed his grandmother.

    There are many things that Obama could legitimately be criticized for, like any President, BUTT to fabricate ****e is just looney, imo.

  13. #88

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    The video you mentioned keeps talking about the scanned copy (in which the seal can't be seen because it's on the back).

    What it (very conveniently) fails to mention is that the Hawaii-issued document was made available a year ago to many people (including the nonpartisan factcheck.org and, iirc, the right-wing newsmax), who were allowed to touch it & otherwise verify that it had the correct raised seal.

    It also (very conveniently) fails to mention that several top-ranking Hawaii state officials (including Republicans) have examined the original vault copy & have gone on the record (several times) as verifying that it is authentic.

    State law forbids anyone other than these officials from accessing the vault copy.
    If a citizen loses his/her original copy (as do many people each year), they get a computer-generated copy like Obama got. They don't get a copy that looks like the hand-written and/or hand-typed original.

    Do these people really think that if Hillary Clinton and/or John McCain had any inkling that there was an issue with Obama's birth,
    they would have opted not to make it a campaign issue? The whole thing is just ludricrous.
    Last edited by moxie; December 6th, 2009 at 06:44 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RA5CViggie View Post
    I wonder if anyone here at MKF who buys this natural-born vs. citizen junk would have the guts to go up to Michelle Kwan (child of immigrants) and tell her that she's not a true American citizen and therefore unfit to hold the office of POTUS, and then argue with her (and her poli-sci degree) if she disagrees. Hell, they probably think "American Beats Kwan" was perfectly acceptable.
    Excellent point! Michelle is an example of the very finest that America has to offer. That is why she has served as America's first Public Diplomacy Envoy in TWO administrations that are polar opposites. As for her being POTUS -- how I wish I could live to see that happen.
    “All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light from a single candle.”
    --Saint Francis of Assisi

  15. #90

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    Yes, by the definition of "natural born" that's been given by some on this board, Michelle (who was born in the U.S. & has lived in the U.S. all her life) would not be eligible to be President. Which of course is ridiculous on so many levels.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    Yes, by the definition of "natural born" that's been given by some on this board, Michelle (who was born in the U.S. & has lived in the U.S. all her life) would not be eligible to be President. Which of course is ridiculous on so many levels.
    You seem to have a mental block understanding the difference between 'American Citizen' and 'Natural Born American Citizen'

    Natural born American citizen is someone who is born in the United States to two American Citizen parents. It doesn't matter if the parents are natural born American citizens or if they became naturalized American citizens after emigrating from their native country, as long as they become American citizens before the child is born then that child is a natural born American citizen.

    Michelle's parents became naturalized citizens after they moving here and before any of their children were born, so their children are natural born American citizens.

  17. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    You seem to have a mental block understanding the difference between 'American Citizen' and 'Natural Born American Citizen'

    Natural born American citizen is someone who is born in the United States to two American Citizen parents.
    It is you who has the mental block. A person fits both definitions (American citizen and Natural-born U.S. citizen) if he/she is born on U.S. soil.
    That's it. That is all that's necessary. Thus, Michelle Kwan, Bobby Jindal & Barack Obama are all natural-born U.S. citizens (as are the thousands of "anchor babies" born near U.S. borders to non-citizen parents, which is why some folks are so in favor of having this law amended).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    Michelle's parents became naturalized citizens after they moving here and before any of their children were born, so their children are natural born American citizens.
    Can you provide dates for this? Michelle was born in 1980 & her parents came to the U.S. just a few years earlier. Thus, it is entirely possible that they had not yet completed the naturalization process before the births of some or all of their children.

    Actually, the date of the Kwans' naturalization does not matter to me, since I know that Michelle's status was "natural-born" at the moment of her birth on U.S. soil. And thus she is indeed eligible to be President.

    It would only matter to you, since you persist in advancing the erroneous argument that the citizenship of parents has any bearing on the citizenship status of babies born on U.S. soil. It doesn't. If you don't believe me, then do some research into Supreme Court rulings. The Justices agree with me, not you.

  18. #93

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    North Dakota GOP Posts Birther Joke On Homepage
    The North Dakota Republican Party has a humorous new image on its front page today: A "Joke of the day" that just so happens to involve President Obama's birth certificate.

    The picture shows the photo of President Obama shaking hands with state dinner party-crasher Michaele Salahi. Obama is given a speech balloon in which he asks to see Salahi's invitation. She answers: "If I can see your birth certificate!"

  19. #94

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    Glenn Beck Flooded With Calls From Birthers, Suspects White House Plot
    Fox News infotainer Glenn Beck returned to the airwaves this new year, outlining his own twisted spin on Birtherism. While Beck acknowledged that the whole notion of a concerted effort decades ago to plant fake Barack Obama birth records is "a little unlikely," he nevertheless wondered aloud on his radio show whether or not the left was actually behind the rise of Birtherism -- thus trading one unlikely conspiracy theory for an even more unlikely one.
    Yes: that would be the dumbest thing in the world, for Obama supporters to pimp Birtherism to right-wing radio hosts. But that's not what's happening! As David Weigel reports, Glenn Beck was recently flooded with calls from Birthers because the Birthers themselves coordinated the calls, in a campaign they dubbed "Operation Flood It," which, I guess, really masks their intentions!

    From the website of anti-Obama Birther den ATLAH Worldwide:

    Operation FLOOD IT- Jan 4th, 2010...

    I want Beck's phone system to crash, everyone press redial over and over.

    We need at least 5,000 people to do this...

    Call (888) 727-2325 at 9am EST

    The left are scared to death of the Obama eligibility issue and anyone that dares to bring it up is immediately attacked and and forced to resign. Just ask Lou Dobbs...

    Why is Fox afraid of this issue? This could throw Obama into jail, we are not talking about czars here. That is small potatoes compared to multiple felonies and a conspiracy to deceive 300 million Americans. The ENTIRE house of cards in the Democrat party would topple, because they were all most likely involved in this conspiracy as well.

    Fox has the guts to throw jabs at Obama for 4 years, but they do not have the guts to deliver the knockout punch, Obama's ineligibility. WE have to change that...
    Nut Case Daily: Birthers turn on Glenn Beck
    On the air today, popular radio host Glenn Beck mocked "birthers" and claimed there is a concerted campaign to get those questioning Barack Obama's constitutional eligibility onto the airwaves – a strategy Beck said would actually benefit Obama.

    "There's always games being played behind the scenes at a talk radio show," Beck said. "Rush has always called them seminar callers. But instead of being coy with the seminar callers or with you, I'm just going to expose the game that is going on. Today there is a concerted effort on all radio stations to get birthers on the air."

    "I have to tell you, are you working for the Barack Obama administration?" Beck scoffed. "I mean, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard."

  20. #95

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    Is the Secret Service Targeting the Birthers?
    Over the past year, Secret Service agents charged with protecting President Obama seem to have taken a keen interest in the Birther movement, the committed group of anti-Obama activists around the country who claim the president was born in Kenya, not Hawaii, and is thus ineligible to serve. The idea has been widely and repeatedly debunked (see FactCheck.org's thorough takedown here), but that hasn't stopped Birthers from doggedly making their case in American courtrooms, to US attorneys, and even to a rural county grand jury, in the hopes that a judge will rule in their favor and Obama might eventually be removed from office. Those efforts have failed spectacularly, but they seem to have succeeded in placing the Birthers on the radar of the Secret Service.

    At least a half-dozen prominent anti-Obama activists who've petitioned various federal agencies or courts to investigate the president's citizenship or publicly questioned his eligibility to serve say they've been visited by Secret Service or Homeland Security agents. Dr. Orly Taitz, the "Queen Bee" of the Birther movement, says, "A number of my supporters had visits from Secret Service, from different agencies, INS, Homeland Security. There are a whole number of people who got these visits to intimidate and harrass them." She says federal agents visited her home once; however, she was not there to be interviewed.
    Indeed, far from discouraging the Birther movement, the law enforcement visits have become something of a badge of honor for anti-Obama activists, an event proudly reported to supporters. In November, Dale Laudenslager, another Fitzpatrick follower, who sent his criminal complaint to the FBI, got a visit from a Secret Service agent and some local cops shortly before Obama was supposed to appear in nearby Allentown. Laudenslager posted the name and phone number of the agent on Fitzpatrick's website. I called the number, which did indeed connect me to the Secret Service special agent, who admitted that he "may have" visited Laudenslager.

    In November, outspoken Birther Rev. James David Manning, a black minister in Harlem, called for Obama to be "jailed, hung and shot," among other things, in one of his online video sermons urging Tea Partiers to "go viral" with the birth certificate issue. A few days later, he reported that the CIA and some NYC detectives had come to talk with him, prompting Manning to release a new video suggesting that his arrest for threatening the president was "imminent." (He has not been arrested.)

    Stephen Pidgeon, a Washington state lawyer who brought one of the first civil suits challenging Obama's eligibility to hold office, went so far as to alert WorldNetDaily when he suspected that the Department of Homeland Security, the Secret Service's parent agency, had him under surveillance. (He says he spotted black SUVs following him to work.) The conservative website, which has been a major source of publicity for the Birther movement (even buying billboards reading "Where's the Birth Certificate?"), immediately posted a story about Pidgeon's suspicions, helping to further fuel the perception that the government has it in for anti-Obama activists.
    The real question, of course, is whether any of the Birthers might actually be dangerous. Many of the plaintiffs in the Birther lawsuits have been active or former military people. Orly Taitz reportedly recruited many of them at the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot and military gun show, a semi-annual Kentucky event that's a hotbed of right-wing and racist radicalism. And some of the Birthers' anti-Obama rhetoric can be pretty extreme. Taitz has even suggested that "it might be time" to exercise "our second amendment right to bear arms and organise in militias."

  21. #96

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    Birther Basketball League?
    The All-American Basketball Alliance announced in a news release Sunday evening that it intends to start its inaugural season in June and hopes Augusta will be one of 12 cities with a team.

    "Only players that are natural born United States citizens with both parents of Caucasian race are eligible to play in the league," the statement said.
    Don "Moose" Lewis, the commissioner of the AABA, said the reasoning behind the league's roster restrictions is not racism.

    "There's nothing hatred about what we're doing," he said. "I don't hate anyone of color. But people of white, American-born citizens are in the minority now. Here's a league for white players to play fundamental basketball, which they like."

  22. #97

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    Birther Queen Files 'Orly Taitz v. Barack Hussein Obama,' Says She's Mulling Run For Office
    Orly Taitz, the dentist and lawyer whose birther lawsuits we've been following, filed a new suit in D.C. District Court Wednesday: Dr. Orly Taitz v. Barack Hussein Obama.

    The suit, like Taitz's others, claims President Obama is not a U.S. citizen and demands his birth certificate.

    It also alleges that Attorney General Eric Holder has ignored her allegations and calls to the Justice Department -- a "game of hide and seek," she says, that's "infantile at best and treasonous at worst."

    Taitz also said on her blog this week that she is considering running for state office in California, either for attorney general or secretary of state, so she could sue Obama for his records.

    "We don't need 50 secretaries of state or 50 Attorney Generals suing Obama. If only one sues and gets discovery, we are done," she wrote.

    She also said she'd need $3,000 to $4,000 to start her campaign, and estimated a run would cost $100,000 in all. Taitz also said she'd need a campaign manager and volunteers.

  23. #98

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    Obviously this so-called lawyer missed the class about "legal standing"; she doesn't seem to understand that the district court in D.C. has zero jurisdiction in this matter & will just toss it out. As will any court in California; also no standing.

    The jurisdiction is in Hawaii, where state officials have repeatedly stated that they have examined the vault copy & it is valid. And state law in Hawaii does not allow an unrelated private person to view another person's birth certificate.

    Really, would we want a random person to be able to access our birth certificate without our permission? Why should Obama have fewer rights than any other person in this country?

  24. #99

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    Orly Taitz Begs UN for 'Protection'
    Taitz claims she is being persecuted for insisting that President Obama is not an American citizen and is "the most dangerous thing one can imagine, in that he represents radical communism and radical Islam."
    Press Release

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    Hawaii considering law to ignore Obama 'birthers'

    Appeals court upholds $20,000 in sanctions against birther movement attorney Orly Taitz
    Taitz appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. She has said that she has no intention of paying.
    I would love to see Oily get dumped in jail.

    Youtube: What Birthers Believe

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