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Thread: Facts & fiction on the "birther" issue

  1. #51
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    I hope no one thinks my "joke" post above means I agree with the "birthers," as I don't based on my own personal experience being vetted.

    As I noted even further above, my life was exhaustively examined with a fine-toothed comb when I had to apply for a government "SECRET" security clearance twenty years ago. I have no doubt that presidential candidates are vetted vastly more thoroughly than I was, meaning they can have no secrets other than their private thoughts.

    Given how much information and extensive paper trails exist -- and in duplicate and triplicate -- for everyone today, the birth location of a person born in 1961 couldn't possibly be hidden or falsified, particularly in the case of a president.
    “All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light from a single candle.”
    --Saint Francis of Assisi

  2. #52

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    Guess who's back?

    Terrifying dentist-lawyer Orly Taitz recently filed another suit on behalf of some wingnut soldier who didn’t want to go fight in the various wars — although had no problem remaining in the military, in America! — because Barack Obama is from Kenya and cannot ergo make her do that, so there.
    PDF: Court ruling

    It's 14 pages long, so I'll summarize: Some chick joined the Army, which paid for her 3rd and 4th years of med school in exchange for her serving two years active duty. She was cool with it until she learned that she was getting deployed to Iraq. She doesn't want to go, so she went running to hide behind Tainted Oil's Birther skirt. She doesn't want to quit the Army, but she feels she shouldn't have to be deployed because Obama isn't a real American and therefore not the legitimate Commander in Chief.

    Judge tossed the suit out and told Greasy Titz that she would be sanctioned if she filed any more "similarly frivolous" suits in his court.

    O RLY Responds

    In an interview with TPM just now, Birther evangelist Orly Taitz fired back at Clay Land, the U.S. district court judge who tore apart Birtherism and threatened Taitz with sanctions in an order today, saying that "somebody should consider trying [the judge] for treason and aiding and abetting this massive fraud known as Barack Hussein Obama."
    I asked Taitz what she will do next with the Rhodes case, which was filed and tossed out in another district before it was refiled with Land. "This is the decision of Connie," she said. "I will be talking to her and making a decision."

    And if Rhodes is open to continuing the fight, would Taitz go along?

    "Oh absolutely, absolutely," she said. "Listen, Nelson Mandela stayed in prison for years in order to get to the truth and justice."

  3. #53

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    This supposed "soldier" says she is fine with serving in the Army, as long as it's on U.S. soil. Who, exactly, does she think would be her Commander in Chief in that situation?
    Her logic escapes me.

  4. #54

  5. #55

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    Viggie, fyi, I got a spyware alert from McAfee on your first link.
    I didn't try the second one.

    I'll see if i can find more on this, thanks!

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    Viggie, fyi, I got a spyware alert from McAfee on your first link.
    I didn't try the second one.

    I'll see if i can find more on this, thanks!

    See - they are labelling all people not supporting Obama as spies!

  7. #57

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    I am guessing that the automated McAfee blocking software
    doesn't care a whole lot about politics ...

  8. #58

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    That's weird. They're both okay for me. Maybe there was a funky ad on the site.

    Here's the Huffington Post covering it.

  9. #59

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    Judge Dismisses Taitz Birther Suit
    A U.S. District Court judge has dismissed one of Orly Taitz's birther lawsuits, saying it would be unconstitutional for the courts to "effectively overthrow a sitting president."

    In his ruling, Judge David O. Carter said the plaintiffs, represented by Taitz, had asked the courts to go outside their constitutional power by demanding President Obama produce further documentation proving he was born in the United States, and if he couldn't, shutting down the federal government and holding an election.

  10. #60

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    Orly Taitz Protest Against Bill O'Reilly, Fox News Planned
    Birther movement leader Orly Taitz is planning a protest in New York City this weekend against a television personality who refuses to air her insane conspiracy theories -- Fox News' Bill O'Reilly.

    The protest is set to take place on Veterans Day, November 11th outside FOX headquarters in Midtown.

    O'Reilly dismissed the birthers in July, saying he had investigated and settled the issue.
    From Taitz's official site: Reminder! Protest Bill O’Reilly in NY on Veteran’s day
    Hope to see you November 11, 12 noon, Veteran’s day

    1211 Ave of the Americas, FOX headquarters, protest Bill O’Reilly defrauding the Nation and defaming decent Americans and are caring a legal battle to unseal all of Obama’s vital records. If you can come, if you can assist in organizing, call me 949-683-5411.

    We need signs, bull horns.

    We are looking for a diner for people to meet and greet before and after the protest.

    Let me know if you can help with transportation, frequent flyer

    Keep in mind, what OReilly did, is more dangerous, more harmful then what some idiots like Rachel Maddow or Keith Obertmann did, since people believe O’Reilly to be fair and balanced.

  11. #61

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    Witnesses: Obama birth lawyer told us to lie
    A man claiming to have been Barack Obama’s homosexual lover and another claiming to have Obama’s Kenyan birth certificate say Laguna Niguel attorney Orly Taitz asked them to lie in federal court. I’ll get to the details of their affidavits with the allegations momentarily.

    Taitz planned to use the two as witnesses in her effort to prove Obama was born in Kenya and is not a legitimate president. However, the case was dismissed on Oct. 29 by U.S. District Judge David O. Carter without going to trial.

    In his dismissal, Carter wrote, “the Court has received several sworn affidavits that Taitz asked potential witnesses that she planned to call before this Court to perjure themselves. This Court is deeply concerned that Taitz may have suborned perjury through witnesses she intended to bring before this Court.”

    The affidavits have not been been made public by Carter. However, in a Nov. 9 motion that criticized Carter’s dismissal of the case, Taitz identifies Larry Sinclair and Lucas Smith as the witnesses she believes filed affidavits saying that she asked them to lie. She denies the accusations and told me she thinks Sinclair and Smith filed the affidavits in response to pressure put on them.

    Sinclair provided me a copy of the affidavit he said he provided to the court, and said that he mailed a copy to Taitz as well. Sinclair posted his affidavit online, and he told me that he sent Taitz a copy by e-mail.

    It’s unclear if the California Bar will review those affidavits. It will, however, be reviewing a $20,000 sanction against Taitz by a federal judge in Georgia, and will determine whether it merits an investigation and possible punishment.
    "Smoking gun", indeed.

  12. #62
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    It is Obama’s being only a first generation U.S. citizen because of his father not being a United States citizen at Obama’s birth that caused his divided allegiance and loyalty at birth (United States v. British and Kenyan) and disqualifies him to be President and Commander in Chief. It is through his father that Obama was born with allegiance and loyalty to Great Britain (which continues until today), which then converted to allegiance and loyalty to Kenya. It does not matter that his mother was a United States citizen because at birth Obama inherited allegiance and loyalty to a foreign power (Great Britain) from his father just as he would have inherited allegiance and loyalty to a foreign power if born to parents who were both non-United States citizens. By Obama’s mother being a United States citizen at his birth, Obama was just spared acquiring even another foreign allegiance and loyalty. Just like a naturalized citizen who—despite taking an oath renouncing all foreign allegiances and loyalties and (which incidentally Obama has never done)therefore cannot be President because he or she is born with allegiance and loyalty to a foreign country, Obama, born with allegiance and loyalty to a foreign country, also cannot be President. All this leads to the inescapable conclusion that Obama is not an Article II “natural born Citizen” and is therefore ineligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

    Barack Obama SR: A “British Subject” born in Kenya while under the jurisdiction of the British Empire. Never attempted to become a naturalized citizen of the US. Instead he returned to Kenya and became a citizen when Kenya became an independent country.

    Stanley Anne Dunham: A “natural born” US citizen because both of her parents were citizens at the time of her birth in the US. How her parents acquired their citizenship is irrelevant as long as they were citizens when she was born. The term “natural born citizen” was defined by Vattel in his legal treatise, “The Law Of Nations” and adopted by our Founders when they wrote the Constitution, specifically and only in the Article II eligibility clause for the President and for constitutional successors to the office.

    Barack Obama JR: Born a dual “citizen.” Born a British Subject through his father and which fact was governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948. He is also a citizen of the US if he was actually born in Hawaii and not out of the United States with the birth being falsely registered in Hawaii. His being a British Subject does not expire. Once a Brit always a Brit per British Nationality Law. Obama does not meet the definition of a constitutional Article II “natural born citizen” because ONLY ONE PARENT WAS A US CITIZEN WHEN HE WAS BORN. Our Founders intended to exclude dual citizens from eligibility for the Presidency and Commander-in-Chief of our military as a “strong check” against foreign influences on the person in this office.

  13. #63

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    After reading the above, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What kooky twists of language will be next?

    The issue is very clear.

    Natural Born Citizen:
    Constitutional provisions
    Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States:

    “ No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. ”

    The grandfather provision of the "natural born Citizen" clause provides an exception to the "natural born" requirement for those persons who were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Most of these citizens had been born as British subjects before the American Revolution (or were born after the Revolution, but before 1787). Without this exception, ten subsequent presidents would have been constitutionally ineligible to serve.[1]

    Additionally, the Twelfth Amendment states that: "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868, defines a "Citizen" of the United States, but not necessarily a "natural born Citizen." Its Citizenship Clause provides that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are Citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

    Supreme Court cases relating to citizenship
    Although the U.S. Supreme Court has never specifically determined the meaning of "natural born citizen", they have occasionally discussed the term as an obiter dictum in cases concerning citizenship.

    Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857): In regard to the "natural born citizen" clause, the dissent states that such citizenship is acquired by place of birth (jus soli), not through blood or lineage (jus sanguinis):
    The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, 'a natural born citizen.' It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural..._United_States

  14. #64

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    Using the twisted definition that those who have one parent who was not born in the U.S. would mean that I wasn't born a natural U.S. citizen, even though I have ancestors who arrived in the U.S. on the Mayflower. That would be in the 1600s.

    Go figure.

    Editing to add: Obama's mother also had ancestors who were in the country for that long.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    Using the twisted definition that those who have one parent who was not born in the U.S. would mean that I wasn't born a natural U.S. citizen, even though I have ancestors who arrived in the U.S. on the Mayflower. That would be in the 1600s.

    Go figure.

    Editing to add: Obama's mother also had ancestors who were in the country for that long.
    It does not mean your ancestors, it means your parents. If your parents were American citizens at the time of your birth, whether natural born or naturalized then you are an American citizen.

  16. #66
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    Obama's British? Cool! Let's elect him King!

  17. #67

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    The facts are:

    Obama was born in the United States.
    He is an American citizen fair and square.
    He won the election fair and square.

    And anyone who doesn't like it needs to go cry into their white sheet.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    It does not mean your ancestors, it means your parents. If your parents were American citizens at the time of your birth, whether natural born or naturalized then you are an American citizen.
    Yes, I understand your point (though it is erroneous; see below). Let me repeat: My father was born in a different country (Belgium), so I (like Obama) am a first-generation American on one side. By your definition, I (like Obama) am of "foreign" parentage & shouldn't be allowed to run for president.
    Which is ridiculous, since I (like Obama) have a mother whose family has been in this country for centuries & has direct ties to the Founders.

    But here's the truth: If a person is born on U.S. soil, it does not matter where the parents were born; even if the mother was in another country five minutes before giving birth, the baby is automatically a natural U.S. citizen if she was within the U.S. upon delivery (doesn't matter where the father is). And a person's U.S. citizenship status after that is completely determined by U.S. law; it does not matter what the rules were or are in Britain, Kenya, Indonesia or wherever. Any mention of laws in Britain (or any other foreign country) is irrelevant in a discussion of U.S. citizenship. All that matters is what the U.S. says.
    Last edited by moxie; November 24th, 2009 at 01:12 AM.

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    Stanley Anne Dunham: A “natural born” US citizen because both of her parents were citizens at the time of her birth in the US.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    She was a natural-born citizen because she was born in the U.S.
    The status of her parents was and is irrelevant.

  20. #70
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    My father was born in a different country (Belgium), so I (like Obama) am a first-generation American on one side. By your definition, I (like Obama) am of "foreign" parentage & shouldn't be allowed to run for president.
    Which is ridiculous, since I (like Obama) have a mother whose family has been in this country for centuries & has direct ties to the Founders.
    Did your father become a naturalized US citizen before you were born? If so that would make you natural born. If he wasn't and you were born on US soil yes you are a US citizen, but not natural born.

  21. #71
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    After reading the above, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What kooky twists of language will be next?

    The issue is very clear.

    Natural Born Citizen:
    Quote:
    Constitutional provisions
    Section 1 of Article Two of the United States Constitution sets forth the eligibility requirements for serving as President of the United States:

    “ No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. ”

    The grandfather provision of the "natural born Citizen" clause provides an exception to the "natural born" requirement for those persons who were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Most of these citizens had been born as British subjects before the American Revolution (or were born after the Revolution, but before 1787). Without this exception, ten subsequent presidents would have been constitutionally ineligible to serve.[1]

    Additionally, the Twelfth Amendment states that: "[N]o person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States." The Fourteenth Amendment, adopted in 1868, defines a "Citizen" of the United States, but not necessarily a "natural born Citizen." Its Citizenship Clause provides that "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are Citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

    Supreme Court cases relating to citizenship
    Quote:
    Although the U.S. Supreme Court has never specifically determined the meaning of "natural born citizen", they have occasionally discussed the term as an obiter dictum in cases concerning citizenship.

    Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857): In regard to the "natural born citizen" clause, the dissent states that such citizenship is acquired by place of birth (jus soli), not through blood or lineage (jus sanguinis):
    The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, 'a natural born citizen.' It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.
    The Founders had great discussion about allowing someone in the future take office that did not owe FULL allegiance to the United States. Read some of the Founding Father's quotes to back that up. Ben Franklin, at least, had a copy of De Vattel, and it was used as a reference when penning the Constitution. Adams, I believe, wrote to Washington imploring him to push that thought process. History is rife with examples of the Royalty marrying outside of the country and the spouse taking over a country of which they were an "outsider". The Founding Fathers sought to protect us from this set of circumstances.

    The reason, once the Natural Born clause was ratified (by virtue of ratifying the Constitution), they had to Grandfather themselves is for a BIG reason. If you look at the history, the Founding Fathers WERE born in the US. So if mere birth in the US qualified, why would they have to Grandfather themselves? Answer: they were ALL born British subjects. Note that anyone born here AFTER the ratification of the Constitution are considered eligible (Remember, once we became our own country, those parents were BOTH considered citizens of the new country at the time of the child's birth). Interesting that today's issue concerns a man born a British subject, no? He freely admitted being born a "Dual Citizen". The thought process of the Founding Fathers on Natural born was that you owed your allegiance to America and America only. A dual citizen cannot, by definition, conform to that requirement.

    In addition, all of the notations you cited merely define "citizen".
    At the time of the ratification of the 12th and 14th Amendments, the country was still young. They still knew the thinking of the Founding Fathers. More importantly, the truth was still being taught to the children and the citizenry. We were growing and wanted all to be welcomed. Note that under this set of circumstances, they did NOT deem these folks Natural Born. Again, ask yourself why not? Answer already given. In order to be a Natural Born Citizen you have to be born to Citizens (note the plurality). This complies with the definition the Founding Fathers set in place of owing allegiance to ONLY the United States. Also, the few Supreme Court rulings on the subject note the plurality of parent(s).

  22. #72
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    You're funny. So you're telling me that because my parents weren't born in this country, I cannot run for president?

    Even a first grader knows, "If you're born in the US, you are a US citizen and can run for president."

    Conservatives makes me laugh. They don't understand what 6 year olds are taught.
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  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkphoenix View Post
    You're funny. So you're telling me that because my parents weren't born in this country, I cannot run for president?

    Even a first grader knows, "If you're born in the US, you are a US citizen and can run for president."

    Conservatives makes me laugh. They don't understand what 6 year olds are taught.
    Yes, and someone needs to explain this to all the conservatives who have been saying that Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal should run for President.
    Since BOTH of his parents had recently arrived from India, they obviously could not have been naturalized at the time of his birth.

    From a Jindal bio:
    Piyush Jindal was born on June 10, 1971, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, to Agarwal Indian immigrants Amar and Raj Jindal, who had recently arrived for Amar to attend graduate school at Louisiana State University.
    In actuality, Bobby Jindal was born on U.S. soil and thus is a natural born citizen, eligible to be President. The status of his parents does not matter.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarynn@Elissa'smom View Post
    Did your father become a naturalized US citizen before you were born? If so that would make you natural born. If he wasn't and you were born on US soil yes you are a US citizen, but not natural born.
    There is nothing in the Constitution and/or in rulings by the Supreme Court (whose purpose it is to uphold the Constitution) that support your definition.

    This particular definition of "natural born" seems to have been invented rather recently. Basically, at about the time it appeared that Obama would be elected President.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkphoenix View Post
    You're funny. So you're telling me that because my parents weren't born in this country, I cannot run for president?

    Even a first grader knows, "If you're born in the US, you are a US citizen and can run for president."

    Conservatives makes me laugh. They don't understand what 6 year olds are taught.
    There is a difference between being a citizen and being a natural born citizen. If your foreign born parents became US citizens and you were born here then you are a natural born citizen. If they didn't become citizens and you were born here that makes you a citizen, but not natural born.

    The Framers of the Constitution specifically used the term "natural born citizen" as a requirement for president in Article II Section I of the Constitution.

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