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Thread: Facts & fiction on the "birther" issue

  1. #1

    Default Facts & fiction on the "birther" issue

    Some info (gained from much research & numerous quadruple-checked sources over the past few months), for those who have been wondering:

    1. In most cases, a person born today will be a U.S. citizen if his/her mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of the birth; it doesn't matter whether the baby was born in or out of the U.S. HOWEVER, the laws were different back in 1961, when Obama was born. At that time, if the father was foreign-born (as was Obama's father), a child born outside the U.S. would NOT be a U.S. citizen unless the mother was 19 or older & had lived a certain # of years in the U.S. Obama's mother had lived enough years in the U.S., but was not yet 19 when he was born, so if she was outside the U.S. when he was born, Obama would not be a "natural born" citizen. (There is no problem with the U.S. citizenship of Obama's mother; her birth in Kansas is well-documented. The issue is whether she could give birth outside the U.S. & confer U.S. citizenship. The answer: In 1961, she couldn't. She wasn't old enough.)

    2. If Obama WERE born in Kenya (as some of the birthers are claiming), he would not have been able to be simply brought into the U.S. as a citizen. Instead, as he would have had foreign citizenship, he would have needed a visa & permission to enter the U.S. (There would be a nice, long paper trail on any applications for this, which surely would have been discovered years ago, during the stringent investigation for security clearance that all U.S. senators get.) Plus, he would have needed vaccinations & medical clearance, since there were several epidemics raging in Kenya at the time. (Obama's mother would have needed the same shots before being allowed to enter Kenya; many of these vaccinations were/are harmful to pregnant women and/or fetuses, so it is not likely that she would have even been allowed to go.) Plus, he would then have had to become naturalized before being allowed to hold his U.S. passport. Naturalization is a matter of public record, so if he had ever been naturalized, it would be easy to find that out.

    3. Obama's brief Indonesia residency (several years before age 10) is a nonissue. Citizenship of U.S. citizens is completely controlled by the U.S.; it doesn't matter what Indonesian laws are & it doesn't matter what parents and/or school documents say. A person cannot lose U.S. citizenship through the actions of his/her parents; it must be actively renounced UNLESS
    the child is absent from the U.S. for many years & does not make an effort to reaffirm (IIRC, the deadline is age 25). In Obama's case, Indonesia may have classified him as a citizen (or dual citizen) for 2-3 years, but that had zero effect on his U.S. status. The important detail is that he retruned to the U.S. long before there were any issues of residency that would possibly affect citizenship.

    So, the proof of Obama's status isn't really with the Hawaiian "certificate of birth" (since the birthers are already convinced it was forged anyway); it's with visa/medical/travel records from 1961. He & his mother would have passed through many airports & Customs clearances from Kenya to Hawaii; why isn't there a shred of evidence that this ever happened?
    Last edited by moxie; July 29th, 2009 at 09:55 PM.

  2. Default

    Oh Moxie. I'm not even concerned about the birth certificate. It is so ridiculous that anyone running for high public office would not have his/her birth origins confirmed. Of course the Democratic party veted Obama before putting him up as their canidate (at least checked to see if he was American- lol). This is just how desparate, jealous, and ridiculous the far right are and always were. They have nothing now except an ex gov Alaskan nut case, a fat slob on the radio, and the idiots at Fox News pretending they're actual newscasters with degrees in journalism. The whole thing is laughable.
    Last edited by evergreen; July 30th, 2009 at 05:59 PM.

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    Moxie, thanks for doing the research and sharing your findings here. Me, I have always thought the rules were quite simple: if either of your parents is a Citizen of the USA, then you are, too, regardless where you are born; and if you are born in the USA, then you are a Citizen, regardless the status of your parents.

    In fact, I'm quite certain those were the rules we were taught when I worked at the welfare, in the mid-to-late 1980s.
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  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    why isn't there a shred of evidence that this ever happened?
    I'm sure there was evidence. Obama just probably used some kind of reverse racist African voodoo to make the evidence disappear. No, no, wait! The evidence is in his REAL birth certificate that he won't give up. Yeah, that's it.

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    This issue makes me wonder the following: What would happen if any sitting U.S. president, in the modern era, was ultimately found to have been born outside the United States? Would that president be removed from office? And if so, how and by whom? Would he or she then be arrested? Would that president's VP then be installed in the Oval Office, or would the VP be considered illegitimate? I'm not referring to earlier presidents or candidates who might have been born in a territory before it became a state.
    ďAll the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light from a single candle.Ē
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  6. #6

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    Interesting hypothetical Rick, BUT that could never happen.
    The rigors of the Primaries and the General Election would insure that a NON-CITIZEN could never be placed into the White House.

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    I thought that if your mother is a U.S. citizen then you are as well, regardless of what country your Mom happens to be in when she gives birth? Am I wrong?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by RA5CViggie View Post
    I'm sure there was evidence. Obama just probably used some kind of reverse racist African voodoo to make the evidence disappear. No, no, wait! The evidence is in his REAL birth certificate that he won't give up. Yeah, that's it.
    Except that when Obama supposedly was born in Kenya, it was still a British territory. (And the British are very good about keeping and maintaining records.)

    So this is actually a plot by Britain to finally get one of "their own" in the White House. Pretty clever of them.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by evergreen View Post
    I thought that if your mother is a U.S. citizen then you are as well, regardless of what country your Mom happens to be in when she gives birth? Am I wrong?
    Not wrong today, in most cases now. But wrong as to how it was in 1961, when there was a rule that if a person had only one parent who was a U.S. citizen, the citizen had to have lived in the U.S. for 5 years beyond his/her
    14th birthday. So, in actuality, no one younger than 19 would be able to confer citizenship.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    Interesting hypothetical Rick, BUT that could never happen.
    The rigors of the Primaries and the General Election would insure that a NON-CITIZEN could never be placed into the White House.
    I would think so. Twenty years ago, while being vetted for a mid-level government security clearance, the investigators went over my life and past with a fine-toothed comb. Based on this, I imagine that the vetting of a presidential candidate is orders of magnitude more thorough than the thorough going-over I was subjected to for a mid-level clearance.
    ďAll the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light from a single candle.Ē
    --Saint Francis of Assisi

  11. Default

    I pretty sure Obama's mom was born in the midwest and was schooled there and then her family moved to Hawaii. I believe she met Obama's dad when she was 18? He was attending the University of Hawaii. At any rate, Hawaii became a state in 1960 and Obama was born there in '61. So a big DUH to the idiot birthers.

  12. #12

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    Yes, she was born in the Midwest, and her family has lived in this country for many generations. In fact, they share ancestors with Dick Cheney. Wgich means that Cheney & Obama are in fact distant cousins.

  13. #13

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    To be POTUS, being a citizen is not enough; one must be a "natural born" (i.e., native born) citizen -- this means born on US soil, not merely to US citizen parent(s).

  14. #14

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    Yes, true.
    But some of the "birther" folks are saying that not only isn't he "natural born,"
    he isn't even an American citizen. Which, presumably, would make him an illegal alien ...

  15. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by attyfan View Post
    To be POTUS, being a citizen is not enough; one must be a "natural born" (i.e., native born) citizen -- this means born on US soil, not merely to US citizen parent(s).
    Hawaii was U.S. soil in 1960. Obama was born there in '61. I presume that makes him a natural born citizen. I would also take a guess that the Democratic or Republican party would check that fact out no matter who they put on a presidental ballot. Just a guess.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by evergreen View Post
    Hawaii was U.S. soil in 1960. Obama was born there in '61. I presume that makes him a natural born citizen. I would also take a guess that the Democratic or Republican party would check that fact out no matter who they put on a presidental ballot. Just a guess.
    Not to mention that in 1961, had he been born in Kenya, the British officials at the Kenyan airport would never have let him out of the country without proper documentation. All of which would still be in their records. And he would never have been allowed into the U.S. without proper documentation.
    Also still in the records. And most of it a matter of public record.

    The Birthers never seem to offer an explanation as to just how it would be possible to cover all this up. Do they really think that, at some point years ago before Obama got his high-security Senate clearance, that he had the power to have the British remove his name from his records? And, he went to many schools along the way. Wouldn't there be an admissions official somewhere who would remember that the school had had a student born in Kenya? As I said: forget about the way that Hawaii issues birth certificates.
    Instead, wonder why not one shread of evidence exists that he & his mother traveled from Kenya to the U.S. in 1961.

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    Oh for crying out loud, when are the Republicans going to criticise Obama where it counts: his statist philosophy? They don't know how to defend capitalism, they lack the intellect to deconstruct socialism/statism, so they stick to complete non-issues to prove.....what? Gents, brush up on your Ayn Rand, your Ludwig Von Mises. And[ I]then[/I] step in front of a microphone.
    Last edited by John King; August 27th, 2009 at 05:07 PM.
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  18. #18

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    Well, the birthers are back at it, claiming that a Kenyan birth certificate has surfaced that is the "smoking gun" proof in this matter.

    Huge problem with this "document": It says that Obama was born 8/4/1961 in the city of Mombasa, but Mombasa was not a part of Kenya in 1961. It was a part of Zanzibar, which means that Zanzibar would have issued the certificate, not Kenya.

  19. Default

    Even the far right Ann Couter who I can't stand (that phoney laugh- ugh) has come out publicly to say the birthers are ridiculous.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by moxie View Post
    Well, the birthers are back at it, claiming that a Kenyan birth certificate has surfaced that is the "smoking gun" proof in this matter.

    Huge problem with this "document": It says that Obama was born 8/4/1961 in the city of Mombasa, but Mombasa was not a part of Kenya in 1961. It was a part of Zanzibar, which means that Zanzibar would have issued the certificate, not Kenya.
    I wouldn't be too confident of that if I were you:

    http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2009/...gerprints.html

    Also:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2307694/posts

    Carl says: “I can’t identify myself here because I’d lose my job. I’m a low level employee of the US State Department attached to the Overseas Service and I just finished a conference call with two lawyers in London and two journalists from Politico.com who all stated that they just left a late meeting at the London Foreign Office and they were assured that “The Kenyan birth certificate is without question, 100% authentic.” I’m not surprised.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    kitau says: “I happen to be Kenyan. I was born 1 month before Obama at Mombasa medical center. I am a teacher here at the MM Shaw Primary School in Kenya . I compared my birth certificate to the one that has been put on by Taitz and mine is exactly the same. I even have the same registrar and format. The type is identical. I am by nature a skeptical person. I teach science here and challenge most things that cannot be proven. So I went to an official registrar today and pulled up the picture on the web. They magnified it and determined it to be authentic. There is even a plaque with Registrar Lavenders name on it as he was a Brit and was in charge of the Registrar office from 1959 until January of 1964. The reason the date on the certificate says republic of Kenya is that we were a republic when the “copy” of the original was ordered. I stress the word “copy.” My copy also has republic of Kenya .” August 3, 9:04 PM

    Also, Canada Free Press has written evidence of coverup in Obama's lack of eligibility. National talk show host was threatened, then caved, signed documents:

    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/13373
    Last edited by Tarynn@Elissa'smom; August 4th, 2009 at 03:01 PM. Reason: to correct grammar.

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    Thanks for the laugh, Tarynn!

    Now lookie this excellent column, published in an actual newspaper: CLICK

  22. Default

    I hate to keep this ridiculous subject going but is there any report about which hospital in Hawaii Obama was born in?

  23. #23

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    It is rather amusing that some people would believe in a folded up paper allegedly from Kenya, Mombasa, or wherever and they just can't believe in Obama's actual birth certificate from the Great State of Hawaii that has been published many times.
    Here are photos!!!
    http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_the_usa.html
    What's there NOT to believe?

    What should be done now? Maybe someone can come forward and say they were born in Hawaii 2 days before Barack and their birth certificate looks exactly the same! Same type, same signatures, same sort of seal!
    No, that wouldn't satisfy these consipirsy cuckoos either, I guess.

  24. #24

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    In honor of President Obama's birthday I present his REAL birth certificate.

    Better yet, forge your own Obama Birth Certificate!

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    A Hawaiian COLB for Obama was posted on the internet more than a year. To date, no certified copy of the Hawaiian COLB or long form birth certificate has been presented to any Authority Having Jurisdiction for authentication such as the Federal Elections Commission; the US Congress; or the Federal Judiciary.

    After more than a year the document is still just a picture on the internet, a document which by the way Hawaii refuses to verify:

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105817

    Orly Taitz posted Certified copy of a Kenyan COLB for Obama three days ago but only after submitting it to US Federal District Court requesting authentication of the document. The document is in the hands of the Federal Judiciary which is a legal Authority Having Jurisdiction.

    Obama refuses to release his long form birth certificate (root document) or even have the internet picture authenticated by Federal Authority Having Jurisdiction.

    Orly Taitz submits the Certified Copy of Obama’s Kenyan COLB and pleads in court to have the document authenticated by Federal Authority Having Jurisdiction.

    Prudence, logic, and common sense move me to think Orly Taitz may have found the smoking gun.

    Semper Fi.

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