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Thread: Sasha - Phil Hersh article

  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittyjake5 View Post
    Never say never. Mao and YuNa do not have a lock on Olympic gold in Vancouver.
    absolutely! if i were a betting woman, i'd put my money on joannie rochette!

    i also don't think that sasha coming back would be the savior that US skating needs, but i DO think that she could teach the young ones something about presentation and not just going through the steps to get a program finished etc... but i don't think she's coming back.
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  2. #27
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    I don't know if I am off target with my thoughts, but part of me feels the current trend among US Ladies started with Sasha. Our baby ballerinas have pretty pointed toes, tend to be artsy, spirals to die for and wonderful, flexy spins, but jump technique is lacking. I feel like they rushed through the ranks and want to get by on flexible, pretty positions. I like what I see from Mirai, Caroline, Ashley, Rachel and Alissa. Can you imagine how far they could go with Michelle's basic skating skills of deep edges and security of jumps?

    I do think Sasha has more flair and a knack for finishing off her elements, and a maturity that the younger crowd doesn't possess just yet (Alissa does, but she's not part of that younger crowd.) But I'm not sure she has much more over them, except I suppose she wouldn't be hit with as many URs.

  3. Default

    Ouch!! We can only send 1?
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

  4. Default

    I hate the Joanie Rochette/KKostner type of skaters.
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

  5. Default

    I Love Yuna. I hope she wins World and Olympic!!
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

  6. Default

    Yuna is almost a complete package. Mao is pretty good too...
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

  7. #32
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    Lets Play Hypothetical FS!

    Heres a possible layout without a 3-3. (You can repeat 2 triples, as long as one is in combo and one is not)

    3L
    3Z-2T
    3S
    3F-2T
    3T-2T-2T
    2A
    3Z

    The total of just the jumps without and 1.1 multipliers is: 40.65. Yu-Na's Jump score at 2008 CoC was 41.8.

    Adding in 3 level 4 spins, (Flying Sit, Flying Camel, Catchfoot, which everyone seem to be doing), a level 3 Step Sequence, and a level 4 Spiral Sequence... her base value is a 56.45. Yu-Na's 2008 Cup of China base value was 59.53

    So.... she'll be down in the TES base value.

    She could compete... but without a 3-3, she'll be at a disadvantage... in both the long AND the short. Not to mention the PCS that she'll be "awarded"

    So yeah.... i dunno

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurDiver View Post
    Lets Play Hypothetical FS!

    Heres a possible layout without a 3-3. (You can repeat 2 triples, as long as one is in combo and one is not)
    Slight correction: Both of the repeated triples can be in combo but only one of them has to be in combo. It is not "as long as one is in combo and one is not".
    Dragonlady

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurDiver View Post
    (You can repeat 2 triples, as long as one is in combo and one is not)
    A skater can repeat 2 triples, as long as they are in combo. For example, a skater could do a 3Lutz+3toe as well as a 3Lutz+2loop in the same long program. The rule is that the triple cannot be repeated as a solo jump. For example, two solo 3Lutzes. However, under COP, the phantom sequence is applied whenever a skater misses a repeated triple, marked as 3Lutz+SEQ and will receive only 80% credit plus the negative GOE. The judges in this case are giving the skater the benefit of the doubt, which I don't particularly agree with.
    Last edited by Dream Again; December 4th, 2008 at 01:54 PM.

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceangelica View Post
    I hate the Joanie Rochette/KKostner type of skaters.
    It's hard to imagine two skaters any different than Joannie & Carolina. What is the Rochette/Kostner type?

    BTW, I'm sure we will have at least 2 ladies for the Olys. And I'm sure one of them WILL NOT be Sasha.
    Last edited by taf; December 4th, 2008 at 01:44 PM. Reason: to show you can edit your post & not do multiple 1 sentence posts

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf View Post
    It's hard to imagine two skaters any different than Joannie & Carolina. What is the Rochette/Kostner type?
    I think they are both classified as powerful skaters with strong basics, which is a compliment, IMO, but I guess it's not a flattering trait to the original poster. Another similarity they share is that they don't habitually get called for under-rotations or wrong edge entries on their jumps. Again, very good traits to have. I'm a fan of both of them, but I much prefer Joannie as I find her more consistent, controlled, and polished in an artistic sense. I don't get why some spectators of the sport want or expect every skater to imitate a ballerina on the ice accompanied by twinkly piano music. How boring it would be if every skater presented this way.
    Last edited by Dream Again; December 4th, 2008 at 05:38 PM.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanette View Post
    Skating While Speedy, please, get it right..
    Oh, yeah, I stand corrected.

  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Again View Post
    I think they are both classified as powerful skaters with strong basics, which is a compliment, IMO, but I guess it's not a flattering trait to the original poster. Another similarity they share is that they don't get called for under-rotations or wrong edge entries on their jumps. Again, very good traits to have. I'm a fan of both of them, but I much prefer Joannie as I find her more consistent, controlled, and polished in an artistic sense. I don't get why some spectators of the sport want or expect every skater to imitate a ballerina on the ice accompanied by twinkly piano music. How boring it would be if every skater presented this way.
    Many if not most DON'T expect every skater on the ice to imitate a ballerina. But most don't consider imitating an out of control giant spider as "OK" in terms of presentation. Kostner's popularity with the Euro judges is, IMO, one of the top 5 nails in the coffin of figure skating as a viable sport. If it was a "fall and you're out" elimination sport, no one would even know her name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    For all we know, Skating-while-"Russian"#2 Kostner, if she doesn't fly out of the rink with her much-hyped "very fast" skating...
    Come on now, she won't fly out....she might just crash slam into it again

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    Quote Originally Posted by missmarysgarden View Post
    Many if not most DON'T expect every skater on the ice to imitate a ballerina. But most don't consider imitating an out of control giant spider as "OK" in terms of presentation. Kostner's popularity with the Euro judges is, IMO, one of the top 5 nails in the coffin of figure skating as a viable sport.
    My exact words were "some spectators". I never said "most." Again, comparing skaters to insects is so mature. :sarcasm:

    If it was a "fall and you're out" elimination sport, no one would even know her name.
    The same can be said for 90% or more of the skating world. It's a very difficult sport . . . every skater falls, some more than others.
    Last edited by Dream Again; December 4th, 2008 at 05:50 PM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurDiver View Post
    Lets Play Hypothetical FS!

    Heres a possible layout without a 3-3. (You can repeat 2 triples, as long as one is in combo and one is not)

    3L
    3Z-2T
    3S
    3F-2T
    3T-2T-2T
    2A
    3Z

    So yeah.... i dunno
    If Sasha does come back, chances are she'll stick w/the jump layout she attempted in 2006-repeat the flip and salchow. She'll no doubt get hit with an "e" on the lutz, so I would bet she would not repeat it. So, without the extra lutz, and the 2nd salchow in a sequence, I would imagine that TES goes down a bit. She'll be highly rewarded with PCS as per usual. But Yu-Na, Mao and Cara also get huge PCS' so may not be as great as an advantage. I think Joannie should be up there, too (in PCS).

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    I think the ideal LP for a skater without a 3+3 combo and without the 3Axel would be like:

    3loop (5.0)
    3flip (5.5)
    3Salchow (4.5)
    x3Lutz+2loop+2loop (9.9)
    x2Axel+3toe (8.25)
    x3flip+2loop (7.7)
    x3Lutz (6.6)

    Base TES: 47.45

    This layout if performed flawlessly with full rotations and correct edges would be very competitive with the layouts of the top skaters in the world.
    Last edited by Dream Again; December 4th, 2008 at 04:31 PM.

  18. Default

    I dont want to see UGLY skating like Kostner and un-inspiring skating like Rochette. Their skate-styles are a dime a dozen. They are 'regular' skaters by my standards. I hope Yuna and Mao both leave them in the DUST...
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceangelica View Post
    I dont want to see UGLY skating like Kostner and un-inspiring skating like Rochette. Their skate-styles are a dime a dozen. They are 'regular' skaters by my standards. I hope Yuna and Mao both leave them in the DUST...
    Did your disgust for Kostner develop when she outranked Kim at '08 Worlds (which I personally didn't agree with)? Did your disgust for Rochette develop when she outranked Asada at '08 TEB (this was fully justified and in fact Joannie should have had an even wider point total over Mao, IMO)? Just wondering because I've noticed a heightened criticism against Carolina and Joannie on skating forums this year that I don't remember seeing in years past. I guess it's a sign that they've truly arrived to spark so much "hatred" amongst some skating spectators.

    I wish I could skate as "uninspiring" and "regular" as Joannie!
    Last edited by Dream Again; December 4th, 2008 at 06:03 PM.

  20. #45
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    Elaine Zayak and Midori Ito were about as far from being balletic as you could get...yet..I loved both of them and found them to be"watchable"...

    I never considered MK to be balletic, either...yet..she was as watchable as anything that has ever moved on planet earth...and/or beyond..
    Keeper of the "Wing-It Pose" from 98 Nats
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    "....and in fact lived every moment of her life as if a child might be watching..."

    Christine Brennan on Michelle Kwan 2/12/06

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Again View Post
    Did your disgust for Kostner develop when she outranked Kim at '08 Worlds (which I personally didn't agree with)? Did your disgust for Rochette develop when she outranked Asada at '08 TEB (this was fully justified and in fact Joannie should have had an even wider point total over Mao, IMO)? Just wondering because I've noticed a heightened criticism against Carolina and Joannie on skating forums this year that I don't remember seeing in years past. I guess it's a sign that they've truly arrived to spark so much "hatred" amongst some skating spectators.

    I wish I could skate as "uninspiring" and "regular" as Joannie!
    Joannie is ok--just kind of boring. Carolina--no comment. By the way, none of today's skaters really do it for me.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Again View Post
    ...Just wondering because I've noticed a heightened criticism against Carolina and Joannie on skating forums this year that I don't remember seeing in years past. I guess it's a sign that they've truly arrived to spark so much "hatred" amongst some skating spectators.
    i can't speak for the original poster, but for me, both Kostner & Rochette haven't progressed enough to amount to the all-around skaters i once thought they would become. Rochette's closer IMO. Kostner is just not my cup of tea in the least & i'll have to leave it at that...

    you could say "they've arrived". but one could also say "better skaters left, leaving room for them"~
    "forgive me for rude. my english is, .......not so good"

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKandNYYfan View Post
    I don't know if I am off target with my thoughts, but part of me feels the current trend among US Ladies started with Sasha. Our baby ballerinas have pretty pointed toes, tend to be artsy, spirals to die for and wonderful, flexy spins, but jump technique is lacking. I feel like they rushed through the ranks and want to get by on flexible, pretty positions. I like what I see from Mirai, Caroline, Ashley, Rachel and Alissa. Can you imagine how far they could go with Michelle's basic skating skills of deep edges and security of jumps?

    I do think Sasha has more flair and a knack for finishing off her elements, and a maturity that the younger crowd doesn't possess just yet (Alissa does, but she's not part of that younger crowd.) But I'm not sure she has much more over them, except I suppose she wouldn't be hit with as many URs.
    I think you're onto something. I cannot say they were inspired by Sasha to do this but she is to me the poorest skater with the greatest success - everything looked good except the blade in the ice, Zhang is a good example of the tradition continuing.

    Kwan's blade in the ice will never be surpassed though, I encourage all to go back to the Gman post today and rewatch the One More Time program that I think Katha posted there and watch nothing but her feet, it is simply amazing!

  24. #49

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    It would be interesting for Sasha to come back for old time's sake... I think Sasha would do pretty well since COP's always been friendly to her. She would definitely shake up the world pot--people might actually pay attention to the US. But I think if she were serious, I'd like to think she'd devote at least one season prior to Olympic season to getting back in training. To start in the Olympic year and hope for the gold medal at the end of the year? That seems a bit... presumptious, doesn't it?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I think you're onto something. I cannot say they were inspired by Sasha to do this but she is to me the poorest skater with the greatest success - everything looked good except the blade in the ice, Zhang is a good example of the tradition continuing.

    Kwan's blade in the ice will never be surpassed though, I encourage all to go back to the Gman post today and rewatch the One More Time program that I think Katha posted there and watch nothing but her feet, it is simply amazing!
    I agree-I don't think they watched Sasha and thought,"She doesn't have the greatest jump technique, so..." but I do think some may have been inspired to work on their flexibility to have outrageous spirals and spins, and pretty poses on the ice, and maybe they ended up not paying enough attention to jump tech and basic edging. Meanwhile, the coaches just hurried their students through the ranks since they could make up points in the spins/spirals categories and get by with "triples".

    I did rewatch OMT, also Winte and Hands. So simple, yet so much details to appreciate and funny how those programs touched me, would not allow me to look away, yet they probably wouldn't be huge point gatherers under COP....
    Last edited by MKandNYYfan; December 4th, 2008 at 09:07 PM.

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