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Thread: IceNetwork taking on illegal video postings

  1. #26

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    It seems few are willing to pay to watch skating. That's why it isn't on any network. They can't recap their money. Icenetwork had to pay for the right to broadcast the events they do. It wasn't free for them why should it be free for anybody? Ad buys aren't bought for things that aren't watched by many. They can't afford it.

    To watch pay preview TV you must have cable. What's the difference that you truthfully need high speed internet to watch Icenetwork?

    I do think Youtube needs to be able to block countries isp's if need be. It would be helpful. Icenetwork should be able to have exclusive US rights if that is what was sold to them.

  2. #27

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    I think people bring up good points for both sides of the argument. However, IMHO, depending on where you're living, I'm from the US and economic recession isn't a incentive to spend money that you don't have. I know some MKF-ers are from the NYC area, like myself, and there is a massive hiring freeze (which I'm sure is not inclusive in NYC alone). Aren't there a couple of NYC college students on here? If there are, you'd already know about how the budget cuts are affecting the college systems. Money is tight and if you're getting your money's worth, kudos! If you feel like you're not, the $30 could have went to something else more important.

  3. #28

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    A little off topic, BUTT if NBC and the USFSA want to generate more interest for the upcoming Olympics (and support for the athletes), why in the heck don't they start broadcasting all of the GPF, 4CC's Europeans on the TEE VEE? It doesn't make any sense.
    How do they expect to maintain a fan-base, or lure in new viewers without showing events on broadcast television?

    It is frustrating...

  4. #29

    Default Ice Network

    I would pay for Ice Network if 1) where I live I can actually view it, 2) my internet is fast enough (where I live now I don't have that option), 3) IN is actually reliable. The price itself isn't that big of a deal, considering it is $30 for the whole year. But if I can't view skating online when I want to, then why would I pay for a service I can't use? This would be the same as paying for internet/cable, but only able to use it when all the stars line up right. IN is a great idea, but it isn't useful to majority of people who do not live in big urban areas inside the US. I do have fast internet at work, but I can't imagine the look my boss will give me if she catches me watching skating videos at work!

  5. #30

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    Perhaps the answer isn't to rant about IN and YouTube, but instead to generate a grass roots effort to send constant letters, emails, etc to the major network(s) asking them to buy the rights and air figure skating. Maybe if we could get enough people together and even get some product(s) sponsors to support us if we support their products it might help.

    I don't know, maybe if we could get enough figure skating fans together who have websites and were willing to post something like, "Figure skating fans buy Product XYZ because Product XYZ supports figure skating" maybe there'd be some products who would be interested in buying advertising space again.

    Then again, maybe its too early in the morning and I'm way off base. But, it was a thought.
    I believe!

    I remain totally in AWE of Michelle Kwan.

    This season just hasn't been the same without her.


    I miss seeing her on the ice.
    I think I always will...
    IF...she steps onto it again
    Oh...my heart stand still....

    _________


  6. #31

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    The situation may appear desperate in the United States, but TONS of people are watching skating overseas I would imagine. Skating is so popular in Japan and other parts of Asia, as well as some European countries, so all is not lost. It just sucks to be a skating fan in the U.S.

  7. #32
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    I think the whole premise of IceNetwork is flawed... this isn't the NFL. FS doesn't have ENOUGH fans to sustain this product in its current incarnation. The way to do this is:

    1. Draw people BACK to FS, with more visible things: Use the internet as a free resource, along with broadcast television/cable to drum up support for FS in this country.

    2. Create a show like OI (what they did @ Torino). I LOVED it. I thought it was genius. Its an outlet for people to get to know the intricacies of skating/skaters/coaches in an entertaining way. Though I must say, I enjoy a lot of what Mary Carillo does (tennis mostly) I love Sale and Pelletier on that show too

    3. USE Michelle Kwan. I mean, you HAVE to get her involved in the sport in SOME way. She was the MOST visible skater in this country (and the WORLD) for so long and she is still popular. True she is doing more important things (Ambassador stuff, college stuff) but if you're gonna bring back skating this is country, use your best assets.

    4. Do advertisement and cross-promotional things with other sports. Gymnastics, diving, other sports with similar premises that may enjoy figure skating. Maybe even major sports to see how many would be interested in it?

    5. Find a way to make the Judging System appealing to viewers and the casual fan or else GET RID of it. Its NOT working on any level: that being to reduce placement of skaters based on judges preference. While it is making EVERYTHING valuable, it isn't making Skating better... just more reptative. How many of you will look back and think: Wow that was a masterpiece like What Yagudin did in 02, or what Kwan did in 98, or What Torville and Dean did, or what G&G did, or any of the pre-CoP special routines. Its just made FS less enjoyable because everything is analyzed and quantified too much.


    Anything, theres are just my suggestions. overall, I find it rediculous that FS would try and milk money out of what little fans they have left, when its just pushing away fans.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurDiver View Post
    Its just made FS less enjoyable because everything is analyzed and quantified too much.
    I agree with your post except for this part. I can't say that I agree that Tara Lipinski's and Sarah Hughes's cheated jumps should have been Olympic gold medal worthy. The 6.0 system was not designed to penalize heavily for under-rotated jumps, two-footed jumps, and wrong edge Lutzes and flips. If the '94, '98, and '02 Olympics had been judged under COP, I fully believe that Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, and Irina Slutskaya (or Michelle for '02) would be Olympic Champions, as they should be. I think the TES definitely needs to be analyzed and quantified as much as it is currently.

    The problem with Code Of Points is the easy manipulation of the Program Component Scores and faulty Grade Of Execution scoring. The PCS scoring is far too often based on how a skater did in the SP or a skater's resume or reputation rather than the actual performance of the LP and the criteria of skating skills, transitions, performance/execution, choreography, and interpretation. Also, far too often I see inconsistent GOE scoring on flawed elements, such as scoring a two-footed 3toe with a 0 or +1 GOE when it should have received a -2 GOE from every judge. The judging of the presentation mark under 6.0 had the same problems.
    Last edited by Dream Again; November 28th, 2008 at 11:58 PM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Again View Post
    I agree with your post except for this part. I can't say that I agree that Tara Lipinski's and Sarah Hughes's cheated jumps should have been Olympic gold medal worthy. The 6.0 system was not designed to penalize heavily for under-rotated jumps, two-footed jumps, and wrong edge Lutzes and flips. If the '94, '98, and '02 Olympics had been judged under COP, I fully believe that Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, and Irina Slutskaya (or Michelle for '02) would be Olympic Champions, as they should be. I think the TES definitely needs to be analyzed and quantified as much as it is currently.

    The problem with Code Of Points is the easy manipulation of the Program Component Scores and faulty Grade Of Execution scoring. The PCS scoring is far too often based on how a skater did in the SP or a skater's resume or reputation rather than the actual performance of the LP and the criteria of skating skills, transitions, performance/execution, choreography, and interpretation. Also, far too often I see inconsistent GOE scoring on flawed elements, such as scoring a two-footed 3toe with a 0 or +1 GOE when it should have received a -2 GOE from every judge. The judging of the presentation mark under 6.0 had the same problems.
    So then use the technology in CoP. I love that they've started dinging people for UR, Wrong Edges, and the like. However, The levels of the spirals and the sprials, and the step sequences, have made spinning and spirals and step sequences worth more, but in the overall program, its not enjoyable to watch anymore. Every girl MUST have a catchfoot position in their spins and sprials... and it doesn't really go with the music! The person I look to show you how to do spins for dramatic effect in CoP is Sasha in Romeo and Juliet. I gotta say, the more and more I watch that program, the more I appreciate how she grew as an artist. That was a beautifully put together program that showcased how CoP SHOULD be. But for every R&J, there 5 programs that are "CoP"-outs. Another program too look at is Yu-Nas SP from 06-07. Most everything in there fits the music. Except the sprial sequence. Her sprial is, admittedly, a weakness of hers... and the spiral just wasn't very strong, BUT, she hit the points in the music with the Changes of Position.

    I think thats what CoP SHOULD be called: Crappy Other Positions, because thats what it give us, a lot of times.

    Anyway, the point of this rambling? Keep the way technical elements are evaluated. Convert it to work with 6.0. 6.0 was the trademark of skating. Now we have point totals. Which isn't working. Diving has points. Skating should have 6.0.

    Look what has happened to gymnastics. They had a controversy, they changed their Code of Points. There is still controversy. Like I've said before... putting veneers on rotten teeth doesn't make everything better, because at the core, theres still rotten teeth.

  10. #35

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    First I am a paid subscriber to Ice Network but I loved it when I could share YouTube videos of Zhang or Asada or others with my almost 7 year old granddaughter 800 miles away. "Illegal" is a very strong word still being worked out by courts and expensive lobbyists. Not sure all our avatars here are "legal"!?

    It will be interesting to see if this effort increases revenue for the Ice Network which is what it is supposed to do. I am sure the short run result will be less interest and fewer viewers of figure skating in the population at large. Not sure there is much that can be done to increase the total number of fans for figure skating but this is a sure way to decrease figure skating's already dwindling audience. I love the sport so I also love to share great moments and events on the internet. That has now become much much more onerous and difficult.

    Ice Network is for the die hard fan who either is willing or wants to sit through ALL of an event to see it. It is extremely cumbersome and requires a technical sophistication to share say Katrina Hacker's NHK SP with my granddaughter. I can save the entire event if I have time, edit out the Zamboni and "boring" stuff, convert to .avi, load the event on a CD or file-sharing site (both "illegal") and somehow hope her mom has the time to figure out how to show the event to my granddaughter. Before I could just give her a YouTube address and continue to whet her appetite for more figure skating

    My guess is the net result of what I consider draconian action against the fan base will not have much impact on revenue and accelerate the shrinking of the number of figure skating fans now and in the future.

    Treating fans and potential fans as the enemy is not a good idea. Reducing the availability of fans and the general public to share great moments easily in a low tech way with non-fans or fans with a marginal interest will surely not be effective in growing interest.

    The audience will surly shrink to an even more niched size -- those with ability and patience to use the technology to watch jerky live streaming video on a computer at 4:00am or figure out how to save a GB or 2 of less jerky video on a hard drive and sort through to see the skaters you are interested in. I can do all this but many can not and even with a paid subscription I am just about ready to just give up trying to spread my joy for figure skating. . . It is becoming much less fun.
    Last edited by shellyfan; November 29th, 2008 at 06:48 AM.

  11. #36
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    PurDiver, I as well hate what COP has done to spins and spirals for the most part . . . talk about squeezing out every breath of artistry and freedom in these moves and instead making them all too teknikal, labored, and unoriginal with the numerous changes of positions and feet that look exactly the same from skater to skater.

    shellyfan, I agree with your entire post!

  12. #37

    Default

    I think thats what CoP SHOULD be called: Crappy Other Positions, because thats what it give us, a lot of times.
    Yes. And PCS = Please Cheat Secretly.

  13. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PurDiver View Post
    I think the whole premise of IceNetwork is flawed... this isn't the NFL. FS doesn't have ENOUGH fans to sustain this product in its current incarnation. The way to do this is:

    1. Draw people BACK to FS, with more visible things: Use the internet as a free resource, along with broadcast television/cable to drum up support for FS in this country.

    2. Create a show like OI (what they did @ Torino). I LOVED it. I thought it was genius. Its an outlet for people to get to know the intricacies of skating/skaters/coaches in an entertaining way. Though I must say, I enjoy a lot of what Mary Carillo does (tennis mostly) I love Sale and Pelletier on that show too

    3. USE Michelle Kwan. I mean, you HAVE to get her involved in the sport in SOME way. She was the MOST visible skater in this country (and the WORLD) for so long and she is still popular. True she is doing more important things (Ambassador stuff, college stuff) but if you're gonna bring back skating this is country, use your best assets.

    4. Do advertisement and cross-promotional things with other sports. Gymnastics, diving, other sports with similar premises that may enjoy figure skating. Maybe even major sports to see how many would be interested in it?

    5. Find a way to make the Judging System appealing to viewers and the casual fan or else GET RID of it. Its NOT working on any level: that being to reduce placement of skaters based on judges preference. While it is making EVERYTHING valuable, it isn't making Skating better... just more reptative. How many of you will look back and think: Wow that was a masterpiece like What Yagudin did in 02, or what Kwan did in 98, or What Torville and Dean did, or what G&G did, or any of the pre-CoP special routines. Its just made FS less enjoyable because everything is analyzed and quantified too much.


    Anything, theres are just my suggestions. overall, I find it rediculous that FS would try and milk money out of what little fans they have left, when its just pushing away fans.
    I so agree with you. However, here's an idea. If you want your granddaughter to see the skating why don't you just give her your password/screen name?

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I so agree with you. However, here's an idea. If you want your granddaughter to see the skating why don't you just give her your password/screen name?
    I think this is addressed to me. Have you ever used Ice Network? How many 7 year old kids are going to sit through 1 to 2 hours of judge introductions, warmups and Zambonis? She ice skates but has no patience for the total ice network coverage. I am trying to increase her interest in skating --- sending her to the Ice Channel to watch competitions on her computer would bore her to tears. I'd have no problem sharing my sign-on information but I am sure the digital rights zealots would tell me that is also illegal.

    It is one thing to go to an arena with the crowd excitement and jumbotron entertainment and quite another thing to watch "gavel to gavel" coverage on a computer screen. Ice Network is for hard core fans with some tech savy --- if you only want to see a couple of favorite skaters it takes a lot of patience.
    Last edited by shellyfan; November 29th, 2008 at 06:25 PM.

  15. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by shellyfan View Post
    I think this is addressed to me. Have you ever used Ice Network? How many 7 year old kids are going to sit through 1 to 2 hours of judge introductions, warmups and Zambonis? She ice skates but has no patience for the total ice network coverage. I am trying to increase her interest in skating --- sending her to the Ice Channel to watch competitions on her computer would bore her to tears. I'd have no problem sharing my sign-on information but I am sure the digital rights zealots would tell me that is also illegal.

    It is one thing to go to an arena with the crowd excitement and jumbotron entertainment and quite another thing to watch "gavel to gavel" coverage on a computer screen. Ice Network is for hard core fans with some tech savy --- if you only want to see a couple of favorite skaters it takes a lot of patience.
    Oh I didn't realize how young she was. Honestly I don't watch all of Ice Network's coverage, I fast foward through a lot.

  16. #41

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    Here is a link to a New York times article that talks about google/youtube censorship. I haven't read it (because I refuse to read that paper) but I was told it kind of relates to the issues Skating fans are having or at least think we are having.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/30/ma...er=rss&emc=rss

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Again View Post
    Ahhh, but it's not only $29 a year to watch the online coverage. You also would have to pay to have a DSL internet connection if that's something you don't have already.
    I dont' have DSL and Ice Network works fine for me. I've never had it freeze or lose sound.
    "The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball...This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."~Field of Dreams

  18. Default Ice Network

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenMichelle View Post
    I dont' have DSL and Ice Network works fine for me. I've never had it freeze or lose sound.

    I am pretty sure you need DSL or Cable speed internet for IN to work. We had the phone dial up here becuase we could only get that where we live. Few months back, we finally got the "faster" version of dial up. It isn't DSL or Cable speed, but it is faster than what I was using. To upload a 20 second home video onto Youtube, it used to take 30 minutes. Yes, you get the idea! Now the 20 second video takes about 3-5 minutes. Still, I wouldn't get IN becuase we just can't get fast internet speed here where we live. It isn't money, but not an option we have.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    If IceNetwork.com doesn't enforce their copyright to these events, they are setting a precedent and could lose their exclusivity to these broadcasts. Since they are in a losing position financially at this point, they have no choice but to be agressive in keeping Americans from seeing these programs outside of their webcasts.

    Instead of being angry with IceNetwork, I'm upset that YouTube doesn't have the ability to filter American ISPN's so that those of us in the rest of the world are free to view stuff posted on YouTube.

    If I try to watch skating on the IceNetwork, I'm blocked because a Canadian network has purchased the rights here. YouTube could do something similar but doesn't so everyone in the world goes without because of the American rights situation.
    Adding to this post from Dragonlady I offer the following:

    Under their contractual arrangement with the ISU from which they purchased the rights to webcast all international ISU figure skating events within the U.S.A., IceNetwork cannot offer viewing availability to anyone outside the U.S.

    The ISU in turn sells the broadcast / webcast rights to other TV or web entities in other nations similar to TV and web entities in the U.S. Until YouTube, and other similar video streaming sites develope and utilize a country by country blockage of video products from any country to the rest of the world, posting of a video of any GP event from any source that is viewable world wide, violates all web rights of all holders of webrights, IN or any other entity.

    Until such blockage by country, from the rest of the world's viewers is made possible, even IN cannot set up it's own YouTube site as they would be violating their own webrights and the webrights of other nation's webcasts. They are not going to do that.
    Pete

    Michelle Kwan: "The best thing on ice since Johnnie Walker!"

  20. Default

    I'm too stone-age. I just want to purchase an ICE SKATING Channel and all that channel does is broadcast ICE SKATING 24-hour. It can show 1900-2008 ice skating competititions over and over and over again and new upcoming skatings. Will we have something like this soon?
    WHAT doesnt KILL U, will MAKE U Stronger

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