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Thread: The Wall Street Crisis

  1. #26

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    Numbers and facts can be construed. To me the NYT is the paper of the Obama campaign. That's why I don't take the word of the McCain camp either.

    http://www.johnmccain.com/mccainrepo...6-53c0c2d88376

  2. #27
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    Many things can be construed, you just have to try to use your judgment as to whether it's way out in left field(no pun intended ) or is very possible.

  3. #28

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    Do we really what to clogged the thread with known bias stuff? It doesn't further the discussion. It just adds hostility. I want to be able to read the stuff people post to make a point. I'm open to changing my opinion about non core beliefs but I have a hard time not gashing out my eyes when I see a link to the NYT. Yes I do realize that we all can cry everything's bias-but somethings are more so then others. I'm going to find some Ann Coulter post (JK!).
    Last edited by tarotx; September 24th, 2008 at 11:53 AM.

  4. #29

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    Technically are we in a recession though? I know things are bad, but have we had two successive quarters of negative growth yet? Dave Ramsey has been screaming on his radio show that we're not in a recession for months.

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace View Post
    However, I'm not sure if I agree with this bailout. On one hand, I understand why we may need it, on the other hand, I'm not sure if it will be sufficient and whether or not it will work. ...
    Here is a good article about how we got here -- without pointing fingers.
    http://www.kypost.com/content/wcposh...6-b3cf58a19377
    Grace, first of all that's an excellent article. A good "Financial Crisis for Dummies" so to speak, and I mean it in a good way.

    About the bailot, I have a lot of concerns too like you. My reason mostly is that I take the conservative line and I don't like it when government meddles with the market. Some rules are needed but government meddling is just IMO never a good thing.

    But my 2 cents in the end is that Paulson's bailout proposal must go through. It's suc an irony that government intervention is now needed to ensure a free market. But failure of Paulson's proposal is not an option. (So we must pray.)

    It's hard to explain what this proposal does for the crisis since it's like you said, complicated. So here's a situation I know of that's an analogy to what's happenning. Some years ago I worked on a case involving a large piece of land owned by 3 counties. 15 years earlier (before the case came to me) the 3 counties decided that it'd be a good idea to jointly build some pipes under the land. The relevant politicians voted to finance the pipes project by selling government bonds. So bonds were sold to private individuals who expect to make money on interests, and government gets their pipes. Well something happened and the pipes project went bust, never even completed being built. But bonds were sold so all these bond holders claim liens on the land. Over the years developers would inquire about buying the land, but would abandon the idea because it made no sense for them because they will either have to pay off all the bond holders, or take the land subject to the liens held by the bond holders and all profits will go first to paying the bond holders. So for 15 years this perfectly good piece of land just lays there, and will lay there indefinitely because nothing can be done with it as long as the bond holders hold liens on it. It was one the THE most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of.

    Now to make things even crazier, it's been 15 years so all the politicians who originally voted to the pipes project are long gone. The new govt officials don't want to take responsibilities and besides it's just to easy to say well don't the other 2 counties pay off the liens? And the bonds/liens holders. Why no one even really know who they are or where to find them because it's been 15 years. People might have died. The bonds might have been transferred. It was a total mess.

    So these bonds are like the toxic debts we're dealing with now. Those derivative securities and bad home loans that will never be paid. The land is like the US economy. It is fundamentally healthy, is a great resource that can grow and develop. Problem is that no one will invest in it until the debts are taken off it. The land is also like the banks. Aside from the toxic debts the banks actually have many other healthy assets. But nothing can be done with the banks as long as they hold these debts. That land laid waste for 15 years and that was last I heard. Can the economy stall for 15 years? Sounds impossible but look at Japan. It never really recovered and it's been 20 years.

    If Treasury takes away this bad debts, then the banks and the economy cn function again. Just like if those bonds are paid off and taken away off the land, then the land can be used again. That's the way I see it right now.

    As for the Fed, there are 2 reasons to be optimistic. If the economy gets going again, then over time, the 700 billion bailout can be recovered from other tax programs. Also, the Fed is able to hold these debts long term. These debts are "toxic" because they cannot be cashed out right now. No one has the money to pay them. But that doesn't mean that in time they won't be paid. Some of them will be paid eventually. Warren Buffet even thinks that the Fed will make money off these debts. I'd be happy if we just break even.

    I think people are being irrationally skeptical of Hank Paulson. So he worked at Goldman Sachs. But the only people with the expertise and knowledge to deal with these kinds of crisis are people who work in these industries. We can't have it both ways. Bernanke is a unique exception. I'd trust Paulson over any politician to manage this crisis any day.

    And I guess our suggestion to stop using this crisis to blame politicians is falling on deaf ears.
    Alexa

  6. #31

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    It was 2003.
    New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=2

    There's more in the NYT archives on this...which the NYT has apparetly forgotten.

  7. #32
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    The whole bailout makes me sick. The government is stepping in to pay off everyone's debt who couldn't afford or just didn't make their payments--mortgages, student loans, credit cards...it's a free for all!!! But the government is not opening the cash register for those of us who paid our bills and/or did not take out mortages that we couldn't afford.

    I know there's a lot at stake here but this is absolutely disgusting!! Rewarding flakes and crooked businessmen who bilked the system.

  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKGrace View Post
    The whole bailout makes me sick. The government is stepping in to pay off everyone's debt who couldn't afford or just didn't make their payments--mortgages, student loans, credit cards...it's a free for all!!! But the government is not opening the cash register for those of us who paid our bills and/or did not take out mortages that we couldn't afford.

    I know there's a lot at stake here but this is absolutely disgusting!! Rewarding flakes and crooked businessmen who bilked the system.
    MkGrace. I agree. I posted this in another thread, but probably this is the right place for it. This is good summary. Long but good:

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/09...ers-tea-party/

    If you prefer brevity, then here are the..

    Cliff's Notes for the Bailout

    Paulson's Toxic Toxic Debt Plan
    http://financeinvestments.blogspot.c...debt-plan.html

    2) What is the immediate benefit? That investment bankers who make $2 or $3 million a year don't lose their jobs? Boo freakin' hoo.
    3) If the government ends up owning all these mortgages, are they going to foreclose? No. They'll let folks keep their houses for pennies on the dollar. "American dream" and all that bull----, you know. Houses worth 2x or 3x what mine is, which I paid for all on my own.
    Thanks again, Washington (D.C.). I hate you all.

  9. #34

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    The size of the bailout that taxpayers who did not participate in creating this mess should and ought to be angry. I'm voicing my support for it. It does not mean that I like it. I just see no other choice.

    For those of us who didn't create this mess, we're like some of the third class passengers on the sinking Titanic. The Wall Street guys are the people in first class. The captain is the government. Now the third class has the tools to actually mend the hole in the ship. So what are we going to do? We can use the tools and mend the hole, saving our more reckless fellow third class passengers and those jerks in first class, and yes the after the hole is mend they will still stay in their first class cabins, while we are in the third class bunk beds. Or, we butt head on principles and withhold the tools, let the ship sink and we go down with them.

    The choice is obvious. It's a disgusting choice but these are the two choices we are now left with. We have to save those who caused the problems in order to save ourselves. We're on the same sinking ship and there's no way to save only us and not them. No we cannot throw them overboard either because by the time we finish throwning them overboard, the ship would have sunk. We don't have time for that unfortunately. We only have enough time to mend the hole.
    Last edited by probativev; September 25th, 2008 at 02:19 AM.
    Alexa

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by probativev View Post
    For those of us who didn't create this mess, we're like some of the third class passengers on the sinking Titanic. The Wall Street guys are the people in first class. The captain is the government. Now the third class has the tools to actually mend the hole in the ship. So what are we going to do? We can use the tools and mend the hole, saving our more reckless fellow third class passengers and those jerks in first class, and yes the after the hole is mend they will still stay in their first class cabins, while we are in the third class bunk beds. Or, we butt head on principles and withhold the tools, let the ship sink and we go down with them.
    So we have to pay for the jerkoff first class passenger's cabins to save ourselves?? Maybe I'll go down with the ship.

  11. #36

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    Just want to add that while the bailout price tag is sickening, I actually am more sicken at the thought of what will happen to everyone if the economy really collapses. I've already written about the outcomes in the McCain campaign suspension thread so I won't repeat them here. But we are sitting the brink of disaster right now. If only more people understand and realize that.
    Alexa

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by probativev View Post
    The choice is obvious. It's a disgusting choice but these are the two choices we are now left with. We have to save those who caused the problems in order to save ourselves. We're on the same sinking ship and there's no way to save only us and not them. No we cannot throw them overboard either because by the time we finish throwing them overboard, the ship would have sunk. We don't have time for that unfortunately. We only have enough time to mend the hole.
    I think we have a third choice here. We can suck it in and mend the ship and once mended and sailing again - throw the offal over the side! There are more elections than the one coming in November. And with all the blog sites we need not let the "offenders" remain under the radar. We just have to keep repeating the truth. That's what the "swift boat" folks did, kept repeating and repeating until the lie became the truth. So think of how much easier it will be to repeat the truth until it becomes "The Truth". We pushed a lot under the rug with the Savings & Loan fiasco including the names of the parties involved. Oh sure one poor devil went to prison but what about the rest of the troops that duped the public. Could it have been pushed under the rug because one of the parties had a last name rhyming with rush?

    And we will know ultimately what happened with the funds appropriated for Iraq that went astray. Maybe not within my lifetime but it will be known.

    As far as consumer investments, it is our money and we can invest it wherever we wish and our wish should be those places that did not put the consumer in imminent danger and we know who they are.

    They’re a lot of us with long memories and while we forgive we don't forget - ever.
    We have met the enemy and they is us.
    Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  13. #38

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    Hey 4dogknight that works for me.

    Frankly I hate the bailout, more so than most people. Most people are angry because they see their tax dollars going to Wall Street, instead of supporting social programs or tax cuts. I hate it for this reason as well, PLUS I hate it that Wall Street now has invited the government to mess with its corporate operations. All these taxpayers complaints and politicians injecting their agenda are what I want OUT of the market (except fundamental necessary regulations). The tax payers are right to complain, and the government is right and entitled to demand if it is tax and government money involved. But both the market and taxpayers would be a whole lot happier if they dont have to be forced to deal with each other as they do now.This whole mess stinks.


    If cooler heads prevail in Washington, then they will pass the bailout, and set up a trust corporation of some sort to give oversight to the companies that benefit from the bailout, and then some heads will have to roll to quell the angry masses. I don't think we need more regulations, because these banks and insurance companies are already the most heavily regulated businesses. We need to reform the regulations so that the regulations will be more effective. We need to have all the regulatory agencies reorganized so that they work for the modern financial market. But more importantly, we also have to consider financial education in schools, and the masses too must re-evaluate their own investment behaviors, and take a lot more responsiblities in managing their personal finances. We need some kind of public advocacy for that, just like how we advocate reponsible living to protect our environment.
    Alexa

  14. #39
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    ....well, here it is two months later and paulson is on his third set of plans for what to do with the bailout money...

    .......he says it isn't going to be used to help the auto industry...if any or all of the "big three" fail......thousands upon thousands of other people will lose their jobs as well......it makes no sense not to help the automakers out if they are also going to help out the banks and mortgage companies who knowingly and willingly gave loans to known credit risks..

    ..the banks who have received their bailout have not passed it on by lending it out as was designed....they are hording their monies to "see what happens"...

    .......the current administration seems at a loss to provide any real leadership or guidance in such stressful times....like they are playing out the string and just letting it all fall into the new administration's lap without working with their successors on getting the ball rolling ahead of time...

    ....our great country is really going through some scary times...unemployment is the highest in years and years...credit for all intent and purposes is frozen to the average person and most smaller companies...we are in a recession which will probably last well into 2010......and things will only get worse before they will get better....

    ...and that thought is even more scary....

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKGrace View Post
    The whole bailout makes me sick. The government is stepping in to pay off everyone's debt who couldn't afford or just didn't make their payments--mortgages, student loans, credit cards...it's a free for all!!!
    MKGrace, one of my neighbors told me a sickening tale about a friend of hers who had bad credit and got a subprime mortgage at a very high interest rate. He and his wife turned their spending habits around and made all of their payments on time for several years. Now they want to refinance to a lower, more fair rate. They applied and were told...get this!...that they couldn't qualify because they were able to make their payments on time. In order to refinance, they'd have to stop making their payments, destroy the good credit they'd built, and tread near foreclosure. Then, and only then, the gov't would step in and bail them out.

    Yes, it is sickening. And completely unfair.

  16. #41
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    I'd be very interested in knowing what financial institution gave these people this information. And at what level the person giving the information was employed.
    Last edited by 4dogknight; November 30th, 2008 at 03:21 PM. Reason: additional info req
    We have met the enemy and they is us.
    Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  17. #42

    Alert Here's something to make your hair stand on end!

    Check out this national map of foreclosures, Bank-owned properties, pre-foreclosures, etc.
    I got this link off of our CBS affiliate station here in Madison. OMG is all I can say!

    http://www.realtytrac.com/pub/landin...3&accnt=149145

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