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Thread: SC MK's short program

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 1999

    Default AYS!

    Don't quit! How then can you see the beautiful skates that Michelle will give us (and I KNOW she will)? Have faith!

  2. #52
    taboo999 Guest

    Default Does this come on tv?

    I haven't seen the programs so this is nothing but speculation. It seems to me the writing is on the wall for MK. Assuming MK isn't getting any deductions, if she is skating clean and is getting 5.5 and 5.6, it seems like they are willing to leave her off the podium altogether if 3 or more people step up and skate well enough to come close. I had the same feeling at Worlds last year. Some of those scores were low enough to put everyone from MK's group AND the previous group above her.

    I have also been wondering if the "message" the judges are trying to send MK is not just on the jumps, but on the programs itself. We've all read enough of the "obscure junk" posts and we all know that there are lots of people who don't like anything that isn't off the "General Classical Music Hits" CD or from the perky, smiley presentation school. I don't see why that group wouldn't include judges. And MK has been really straying from the mold the last two or three years. For the long programs, Irina's DQ plays directly into that while MK's Black Swan goes directly in the opposite direction. And the skate order sets it up for one of those storybook overtaking-the-leader victories at the end.

    Don't mind me, I am just thinking out my butt and being my usual obnoxious self. It's just that I would hate for the judges' last impression of MK before the "big" competitions to be "technically and presentationally stale". Is it too much to hope that MK did a really bad flutz or lip or her spins were way out of wack to warrant the full .3 deduction and not that the judges think the clean program is only worth 5.6?

    Well, the competition isn't over yet. Ice is slippery.

  3. #53
    shell4mk Guest

    Default Sharon

    I can't answer for AYS, but for myself I have faith that I will see great skating still to come from Michelle. It's the judges I have no faith in.

  4. #54
    AYS Guest

    Default Thanks

    Thanks for the support Sharon and shell4mk

    Put it this way...the judge that gave MK 5.5 in technical gave Fumie Suguri....5.7!!!!!! Another judge gave them both 5.6. I'm not understanding this >:

  5. #55
    skatingfan Guest

    Default Re: Does this come on tv?

    lp at worlds 2000, MK skated first and they left room , but in the end the judges called the right decision.
    About music selection etc, who knows.I think if MK wants to continue to use relatively uinknown music she should skate more ISU events and lt the program grow on the judges. EVen judge Inman said as per KetihB that MK's programs a lot of times underwhelms him but then it grows on him.

    It is all about risk/reward for jumps for music etc
    A piece of music like TRV last year has more risk but the potential reward is greater. I am certain that there are judges who are willing to take the time to learn the music and really try to go to as many practice sessions as possible to get the feel of a skaters programs, and I am sure there are judges who are not as willing to do homework like that. For the latter, I speculate music like DQ are much safer.

    I have been screaming about the lp music for the last few days, and will not repeat it here. MK's current lp music choice again has high risk, and I hope it will give her high reward.

    I recommend you to read Klier99's thread on Dvorak piano trio "Dumky". in MK chat

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Apr 1999

    Default RE: Thanks

    Your welcome AYS ! shell4mk, I question the judges too, but the only thing I can do about that is ferverently hope that the skating gods make everything right in the end, but failing that, I judge her programs for myself, and I can be honest! Even though 6 of the judges thought she didn't win the '98 Olympics, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> I<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> thought she did ! But I thought Irina won the last program of the GPF, so she deserved the gold there.

  7. #57
    pbluu Guest

    Default Tech Score of MK and IS

    This is a bit disturbing!
    What are these judges looking at?
    MK obviously did enough here with the difference of MK's 3Lutz/2Toe to IS's 3Lutz/2loop.
    Yet some judges gave IS as high as 2 tenths more over MK! I don't agree with that at all.
    Frank should really protest with the refere here.

    I guess, you have to take into consideration that these are different sets of idividuals than at SA?

    Plus, this is back to the old questions. Do they rotate the judges for these events or do they use the same old tired ones over and over again.

    Actually, I'm not too worried with MK standing as long she is in the top 3 going into the Long program.
    as for the GPF, i didn't like the format at first but now i think it's great! It lets a skater let loose technically in the final match up. Which means that a skater can't hold back and be cautious if that person wants to win.
    Iím a bit tired of watching MK not going for her 3toe/3toe in her long program as planned. She needs to go for it!
    Yeah, the thought of music of choice such as modern vs classical has entered my mind too. I think that also might the case. The conservative judges will mostly likely to go with a traditional classical style rather than a rock or pop stuff. Which is really too bad.
    There are some great modern and contemporary music that skaters can experiment with.
    I think these judges need to open up their minds a bit. The type of music shouldn't matter as long as it is good and appropriate to the skaterís style and interpretation. Believe me there are some really bad and boring classical stuff! How many times do I have to listen to Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet! or generic movie soundtracks! LOL

  8. #58
    savvysearch Guest


    The scores of 5.5 and 5.6s does kind of look fishy. The odds were against MK at Worlds too when she received a 5.6 from the Hungarian judge and relatively low scores for technical elements. Especially considering that she gave arguably the best performance of any skater that year!!!! I got the feeling that the judges really wanted to give the gold to someone else. Though it is just a feeling and not based on anything.
    Remember last year, when MK gave consistent but lukewarm performances last whole season up until World's? And then she seemed to improved dramatically when she skated at Worlds. And everyone's eyes were REALLY opened on how MK's skating at Worlds was nothing like her skating the whole season. And it gave us perspective that school was a HUGE factor in the level of her performances. Perhaps it is the same this year. Perhaps the 5.5 is a reflection of the lukewarm performances recently since everyone who saw her at Worlds last year knows she is skating under potential this season.

  9. #59
    sw10025a Guest

    Default Re: Tech Score of MK and IS

    Folks, just as people shouldn't have jumped to any conclusions before seeing Sarah and Michelle skate at SA, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions here. Its quite possible (*gasp*) that Irina simply out skated Michelle today. Its also possible that Michelle didn't have enough revolutions on one of the spins and took a deduction for that, she was slow, or that she had a tweaky landing on something that the average spectator wouldn't see but the judges would catch -- that wouldn't result in an outright mandatory deduction, but a lower base mark.

    In any case, as long as Michelle is reasonably pleased with her performance at this point, I'm happy, win or no. Another clean performance to add to my videotape collection. Yippee. We can't and we shouldn't buy into this mentality so prevalent on other boards that its victory or nothing. Nor should we be essentially behaving like those golfers who insist that anything but a Tiger victory is a judicial plot or signs of favoritism. We're better than that, and we know better than to do that, and we should all remember that it ain't over until the proverbial fat lady sings, and well, if she doesn't, that's OK, too...

  10. #60
    taboo999 Guest

    Default I don't have a problem with the placements

    It's the actual scores that scare me. If MK gets scores like that at Worlds next spring, she won't even make the final group. Like I said, I just hope MK did something wrong in her program and that the program itself is worth more than 5.6.

    Well, at least no one can blame the USFSA conspiracy this time. :b

  11. #61
    shell4mk Guest

    Default sw10025a

    Point well taken. It doesn't change the way I feel, but you're right that we shouldn't fall into that. I see a trend happening, whether it's the judges or something I don't understand in the skating. But, as a Michelle fan I find it disturbing.

  12. #62
    Glaadrial Guest

    Default Masters short

    I just went back and reviewed the tape. IS is MUCH, MUCH faster in her spins. She DID travel a lot but if she managaged to clean that up along with the 3z/2l I can see why the scores would have been higher than Michelle's.

    The speed in the spins is very aesthetically pleasing as well; hence, the higher presentation scores.

    I'm discouraged because I just don't know what Michelle can do this season to match the ante. Her lutz is solid as is her toe but she's faultered on all the others this season.

    Does she have a 2l to tag onto the lutz? Seems like the only thing she can do is plan a 3z/3t in the short which if it's not solid will kill her chances. Is it possible that she intended to do this at this competition then changed her mind? I just don't get why Paul Martini would say what he said if she hadn't.

    Still, if she's gonna go for broke in any year, this one is the one to do it in. Maybe with some losses on true attempts she may get some successes as well and really be confident next year.

    Anyway, that's what I would say to her. She's already 3-time World Champion...she doesn't need another one. She needs confidence in her program and the only way to get that is to keep trying no matter what the outcome.

    I know she'll come through. I just feel the growing pains right now.

  13. #63
    Laine Guest


    Yes Michelle had a clean program with a 3flip and yes she got a.5 some 5.6's and some 5.7's. Realize however that both Fumie and Galina landed the same jumps as Michelle and their technical marks are for the most part in the low to mid fives. This obviously implies that Michelle's quality is above most others and that if the judges wanted to push Michelle down in the rankings then they would have placed both Fumie and Galina ahead of her. But they didn't. There is no conspiracy, if there was we'd see Michelle sitting in 4thight now.

  14. #64
    promom Guest

    Default We'll have to wait for the TV Airing

    From the scores it looks as though Michelle (Presentation wise) was received the same across the board. My question would be in why some Judges gave Irina 5.9's it can't be just the spins. One thing that really stands out to me is Irina's pumping as she does things as basic as stroking around the ice. What about edges, stretch, line, footwork? It does seem some Judges did give her 5.7's which would be in line with my thinking. However I think Michelle should not make any drastic changes in the Short, she has gone head to head with Irina's short program before and those judges (who were just as qualified as these) gave her the nod. You can't please everyone all the time.
    I say skate your heart out tomorrow Michelle! The ice is slippery for EVERYONE. You can only give your best and were
    behind you 600%

    Terri Mommy to a 4 year old Violinist

  15. #65

    Default Re: We'll have to wait for the TV Airing

    I have seen this pattern before......I give 99.9% chance
    of another Kwan win...

    What ever happens...she is still a legend....

  16. #66
    lizard Guest

    Default MK ahead on presentation marks

    If you add up the presentation marks across the board for MK and IS, MK actually comes out one tenth ahead of IS on presentation. That bodes well for the LP for MK, I think. She still can come ahead of IS on presentation overall. the tech mark discrepancy is the problem I guess. perhaps spin speed, height of jumps come into play but also her bad luck at having to skate first might have taken a tenth away. Hopefully, mk can pull off a wonderful LP. regardless of the final result, in my book mk is far ahead of IS on presentation all the time. IS's style just is too choppy and forceful for my taste. It always looks like a lot of work and doesn't have a light, smooth feeling. I'm a complete MK fan and cannot force myself to be happy about anyone else but her winning. I will be crossing my fingers.

  17. #67

    Default Re: MK ahead on presentation marks

    Good point Lizard. Irina's presentation scores are more variable. At least the judges are in agreement about MK's presentation scores.
    I don't mind that MK is in second place but those technical scores bother me, especially considering that she was clean! Ah the perils of "holding down the scores."
    MK, just LET IT GO and skate freely! Don't hold back!

  18. #68
    Rene Guest

    Default Re: MK ahead on presentation marks

    "certainly, as far as presentation wise, I don't think you can compare Irina Slutskya to Michelle Kwan"


  19. #69
    Klier99 Guest

    Default Wake-up call.

    Okay, this has been said before, but I'm going to say it again. So Michelle is lacking motivation, huh? Well here's some motivation, then! Michelle had lower technical scores than Irina -- nothing new. But now, she's also down (from some of the judges) on the presentation scores as well. What, then, is the writing on the wall, and can Michelle read it? YES, I believe so. This is a warning letter. Michelle needs to know that she cannot just rely upon her artistry to pull her through, because apparently some judges don't think her artistry is that much better. How they can think this, I have no earthly idea! But their blunt message is clear, and they're driving the point home.

    In addition, Michelle has been trying to expand her horizons artistically, but some of the judges don't appreciate that. After last year's reception of "A Day in the Life" and now "Rush," I would think that Michelle, Frank and Lori should begin to sense that the judges just aren't buying the rock and jazz-influenced music. They obviously like classical ballerinas, and if another skater delivers a clean interpretation of this, then they will overlook Michelle and do this. It's a choice Michelle has to make: Either follow your heart and what you know is best for a growing artist, or do the same-ol' same-ol' stuff that the judges want. Hmmm... Well, ultimately it's the judges who decide who and what wins. Just as you can't change other people, you can't change the judges. It's sad, but true. So if you want to win THEIR game, you have to give them what THEY want. Later (as a professional -- if Michelle ever does turn pro), when you don't have to depend on these ISU judges for your titles, THEN you can do what YOU want to do. It's a matter of survival. You have to know who controls the power and who controls your marks or your paycheck. It's their game/business, and you just have to play by their rules if you want to win their approval.

    So now what does Michelle have to do? \

    Problem: She realizes the judges don't like her pop/rock/jazz musical selections.
    Fix: Give them classical ballet music. They like that and will score it well.

    Problem: She doesn't have the time to work on faster spins and loop combinations.
    Fix: Make time or pay the consequences.
    --An education is important to Michelle, but she has to make the choice. You can't have it all, and as her father told her, "something has to give." It's not a popular statement, but age certainly often carries its wisdom.

    Maybe winning this season isn't as important to Michelle as college. Then so be it. It's her life and her future, so she'll make the right decision as to what's best for her.

    Next year is the big one for her at the Olympics. So give a little here and there this year, and then focus more next year when it's more important.

    I'm rambling, too, so I'll summarize here again.
    If Michelle wants to win with the judges, she has to give them what they want: conservative classical music, harder jump combinations, faster spins with more stretch and holding out the positions longer. No questions asked. This is what they want -- give it to them, or prepare to be "penalized."

    Harsh, isn't it? This is good for Michelle. She needs some incentive to improve -- EARNESTLY. Nothing will get this message across to her better than some sound LOSSES to eliminate any doubt.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    May 1999
    San Diego, CA

    Default Wake-up call.

    Hey Rene, I don't remember that quote. When did Dick say that? It does speak the truth.

  21. #71
    Jason Guest

    Default Thoughts

    Dick said that at Worlds 2000 after Irina's short program.

    In my mind, even if the judges do not like this style of program from Michelle, Michelle skates for Michelle and not for the judges (despite it being an ISU short program marked by the international judges). If she feels that this is the style she wants to pursue, then so be it. I'm very impressed with this young lady.....all the criticism she faces. With a classical, balletic program, she would be criticized for playing it safe, not upping the ante. With a refreshing short program like she has this year, she is criticized for being too versatile and sacrificing marks for that. Michelle's main flaw (which is not really a flaw) is that she is Michelle Kwan, the finest ladies skater in the world. With that comes the burden of expectation, critics with never ending cheap shots. The main thing is that when the time comes and she needs to hit those difficult jumps, she never fails. Despite what the judges mark her as or what the skating world might otherwise think, Michelle Kwan is her own skater and she skates for herself (and her fans). How many skaters these days are held up to such high expectations as this woman is? Despite the 5 years that she has dominated elite skating, she has never ever really gotten her due, whilst other top athletes are often held up despite programs that do not deserve such high acclaim. Michelle's biggest challenge is that she is Michelle Kwan --- and that's why I love her so much.

  22. #72

    Default Re: Thoughts

    After watching the ladies' SP, I have to say, Irina also had more difficult footwork. Irina's straight line footwork were mostly on one foot. Her speed was better, but her flow out of the jumps was not as good as Michelle's. This is the first time I saw Michelle's SP this season. I think Michelle really had a good skate. I now am worried about how Michelle can up the ante in her SP. Maybe she have to master her footwork first and increase her speed in the spins. After that, maybe Michelle have to try 3lutz-2loop??

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Sacramento, CA

    Default Irina's Footwork More Difficult???

    Ok. So it's a lot of on one foot...that doesn't necessarily make it more difficult. In fact I recently slow-motioned the entire circular footwork sequence and it's some of the most complex stuff she's done in a short program. I'm gonna bump that post up sometime soon. This is what I don't understand though. Michelle has NEVER under-rotated a spin in the short program. NEVER. She always does at least 2 revolutions OVER the mandatory amount, 8 on the layback and flying spin and the six revolution thing on the combination spin for each foot. So I really don't see that. Since I haven't seen this program yet, or how each of them skated, but head to head from the masters (Taking into account Irina's 3lutz/2loop) this is how I would see it.

    Combination Jump: Advantage Irina
    Footwork into Jump: Advantage Kwan (Her footwork is, believe it or not, more difficult)
    Double Axel: Advantage Irina
    Step Sequence: Advatage Kwan
    Spiral Sequence: Advantage Kwan
    Layback Spin: Advantage Irina
    Flying Spin: Advantage Kwan (Death Drop back sit is harder than a flying camel)
    Combination Spin: Advantage (I'd say Kwan but more than likely it is a tie)

    So I can see no reason why the scores for Michelle were so low except for the fact that she skated before Irina. As for presentation, Michelle has more speed across the ice, better ice coverage, and her program is choreographed better. The first three elements of Irina's short are the jumps and that's not usualy a good thing (From a judging point of view) as it loads the program in the beginning and tends to make the rest just look too plain. Kwan would have the advantage in the presentation as well. So I must revert to my previous (And most commonly used) analogy that the judges are smoking crack rock yet again.

  24. #74

    Default Re: Irina's Footwork More Difficult???

    Did Irina have a loop or a flip as her solo jump? I read that she had a loop on the Skatefans list.

  25. #75

    Default Re: Irina's Footwork More Difficult???

    I just reviewed my tape from last night ladies' SP. Irina did a 3flip out of footwork. Michelle had more revolutions on spin than required. I found Michelle's 3lutz a little underrotated (1/8 revolution short maybe). That's what I saw using slow motion. If not using slow motion, I just found the landing was not as good as it could be. Michelle's circular footwork was good but could be better too.


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