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Thread: One Triple, 2 Doubles Win A Short Program??

  1. Question One Triple, 2 Doubles Win A Short Program??

    So I'm re-watching Debi Thomas' short program from 1988 Calgary Olympics and she only did one triple and two doubles. Are you telling me this WON the short program for her????? I was watching and at the end of her skate I was like:


    Tugba's 2006/2007 Ranking At ISU: #61 --- She Moved Up 6 Spots!!
    Kween On Ice -- December ??? & December 27th 2006

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    Quote Originally Posted by KwansPrayerWarrior
    So I'm re-watching Debi Thomas' short program from 1988 Calgary Olympics and she only did one triple and two doubles. Are you telling me this WON the short program for her????? I was watching and at the end of her skate I was like:
    Welcome to the wonderful world of safe skating.

  3. #3

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    yeah, back in the day, until about 1995, skaters could easily do one triple jump combination, and then two double jumps...one axel and another jump. This was pretty standard.

    The rules before actually called for a required double jump out of footwork and double axel. This was along with a jump combination, which could include a triple or double. Even recently with 6.0, the BASE score would not include mandatory deductions if the skater did double jumps.....the skater just wouldn't score as well against a skater that did triples.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by KwansPrayerWarrior
    So I'm re-watching Debi Thomas' short program from 1988 Calgary Olympics and she only did one triple and two doubles. Are you telling me this WON the short program for her????? I was watching and at the end of her skate I was like:
    One needn't go back to 1988 to find a one triple SP. Watch Lillehammer. The 2 triple SP didn't debut intil 1995 worlds. And Guess what, 1980 was the first time someone won the SP with a triple. Why not watch Dotty Hamil win the 76 SP with no triples? Or better yet, read a book about how people used to read by candle light. Can't say I understand the point of this thread.

  5. #5

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    BG, just when I thought I was falling out of love from you, I find new ways to lurve you again

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    On other skating statusm my floor skatng around the house, I believe I am only doing singles so I guess Debi is better than me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost
    Or better yet, read a book about how people used to read by candle light. Can't say I understand the point of this thread.
    I never really followed skating till Michelle in 1998 Nagano. So wasn't sure how it worked. But thanks for giving me the benefit of your professional licensed expertise. There's no need to be snippy. .......I simply asked a question because I'm not as well educated when it comes to the technical aspect of figure skating, and I was a bit shocked by what I saw and wanted to ask a question on this board from people who obviously know alot more about skating (Seeing as you have a Bachelor's Degree in Skating Economics) which was WHY this thread WAS POSED in the FIRST place.


    Tugba's 2006/2007 Ranking At ISU: #61 --- She Moved Up 6 Spots!!
    Kween On Ice -- December ??? & December 27th 2006

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    WOW! I wish I could do a triple lutz on the floor. LOL!!

  9. #9

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    1988 was an entirely different era of figure skating. That was the school figures era, which skaters had to spend hours and hours practicing which meant much less time to practice the programs and jumps.

    Thomas was technically advanced for her time. She had a 3loop, which was considered a top jump for ladies then and during the '88 season attempted a 3toe/3toe combination, which was virtually unheard of for women. I think Midori Ito was the only other skater attempting a 3/3.
    Last edited by Ogre Mage; April 6th, 2006 at 01:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage
    1988 was an entirely different era of figure skating. That was the school figures era, which skaters had to spend hours and hours practicing which meant much less time to practice the programs and jumps.

    Thomas was technically advanced for her time. She had a 3loop, which was considered a top jump for ladies then and during the '88 season attempted a 3toe/3toe combination, which was virtually unheard of for women. I think Midori Ito was the only other skater attempting a 3/3.
    I kinda gathered that after watching a videotape of her 1988 Short Program at the Olympics. I am just so used to see alot of triples during a short program (well, at least a few ) and it just kind of weirded me out seeing only one triple from her. Times have definitely changed. Thanx for being nice about it and not acting kindergartenish and making me feel stupid.


    Tugba's 2006/2007 Ranking At ISU: #61 --- She Moved Up 6 Spots!!
    Kween On Ice -- December ??? & December 27th 2006

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    I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think skaters were allowed to do 2 triples in the SP until some time in the 90's. I believe the solo double jump was a required element, and the triple was optional for the combination.

    One of the fears that skating purists had when figures were dropped from competitive skating was that skating would become all about the jumps and that younger skaters would only learn to jump and not how to skate with proper edges. That has pretty much come to pass, and to such an extent that it's taken the CoP scoring system to reduce the emphasis on jumps only.

    The fact that we even have a thread talking about it being ridiculous to win the SP at the Olympics with one triple jump tells me how jump-centric skating has become.
    Dragonlady

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady
    I may be mis-remembering, but I don't think skaters were allowed to do 2 triples in the SP until some time in the 90's. I believe the solo double jump was a required element, and the triple was optional for the combination.
    That's what I remember too.

    And it's not like they do [b]that[/i] many more triples now a days - in general, they'll only do two, and on very rare occasions three.

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    Also what you have to remember is the ISU prescribed which jumps were to be done. You HAD to do a double axel, you HAD to do a prescribed double jump - that year was a double flip IIRC - and you HAD to do a two jump combination that included a double loop with another double or triple jump of your choice. It really messed things up when one of your combo jumps had to be a double flip!!!!!

    Re 1988: Debi actually made her SP more difficult by doing a 2l-3t combo as opposed to Katis's 3t-2l and Liz Manleys 3s-2l combo's.

    Midori Ito had by FAR the most difficult combo with a massive 2loop - 3loop together with a very difficult entry to a double axel performed with her hands on her hips!!!!!!

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    That was Ito alright, always showing off her "tricks" No, seriously, she was a breath of fresh air and more. Thank you Midori for all you tried to do at that time for Women's FS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berthesghost
    One needn't go back to 1988 to find a one triple SP. Watch Lillehammer. The 2 triple SP didn't debut intil 1995 worlds. And Guess what, 1980 was the first time someone won the SP with a triple. Why not watch Dotty Hamil win the 76 SP with no triples? Or better yet, read a book about how people used to read by candle light. Can't say I understand the point of this thread.
    LMAO that was one of your funnier posts.
    Keep on truckin

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    to make it simple...

    skating has progressed...
    "If you spend four years for just those six minutes, it's not worth it...You have to go in with the right reason" ~ Michelle Kwan on her love for Figure Skating


  17. Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Euroboy30
    Also what you have to remember is the ISU prescribed which jumps were to be done. You HAD to do a double axel, you HAD to do a prescribed double jump - that year was a double flip IIRC - and you HAD to do a two jump combination that included a double loop with another double or triple jump of your choice.
    Do they make you do certain doubles or triples in the short now? (Besides the required Axel) ? I never pay attention, I just assume Michelle et al can do whatever she feels comfortable doing


    Tugba's 2006/2007 Ranking At ISU: #61 --- She Moved Up 6 Spots!!
    Kween On Ice -- December ??? & December 27th 2006

  18. #18

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    The jump out of step is specified for juniors each year. It rotates between lutz, flip, and loop. They have the option of doing double or triple.

    Seniors don't have any required jump takeoffs except for the solo axel (which may be triple for senior men).

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateworlds1
    Welcome to the wonderful world of safe skating.
    After reading the whole thread, I am pretty sure that it was not so-called "safe skating", as you put it. It was what the rules called for back then.

    So obvioulsy, you don't know too much about the sport but continue on and on criticizing skaters who could not jump the way you expect them to, which by the way is ridicously high.

    I guess you will never learn...

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateworlds1
    That was Ito alright, always showing off her "tricks" No, seriously, she was a breath of fresh air and more. Thank you Midori for all you tried to do at that time for Women's FS.
    Ito wasn't showing off her "tricks". She was doing what the rules of the time required. She was also inventive in finding ways to use her jumping proficiency because some of her other skills were not as strong as some of her competitors.

    Figure skating used to require that skaters execute figures and they comprised a very large percentage of the marks which went into winning events. Skaters who neglected figures in pursuit of jumps, didn't win. It wasn't until the ISU started phasing out figures and introduced the SP to skating that jumping started to become more important in the sport.

    By the end of the 90's, speed and jumping had become almost the sole criteria under which figure skating was judged. This had lead to skater with questionable skating skills winning major championships (Evgeny Plushenko, Surya Bonaly, Tim Goebel, Brian Joubert). CoP has sought to address this imbalance by promoting skills other than jumping. So far, it's a work in progress.
    Dragonlady

  21. #21

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    And let me tell you......figures were a real b**ch.

    I remember towards the beginning of my competitive skating that figures were not required for competitions, BUT were required as part of your USFS tests. This was before MITF were started.

    Luckily, the figures were dropped all together a bit later so I didn't have to worry about it. Otherwise, I would have been down in like Juvenile rather than Junior....LOL LOL

    Even though figures were hard, I still had some fun doing it. I was really good at doing the loop figures, but when it came to the large figure eights, my circles always came out a bit more like ovals, or one circle was bigger than the other...LOL Not to mention, I had horrible vision at the time and didn't want to wear glasses on the ice. But now I can see twice as better than 20/20 (thanks to lasik...yay).

    Anyone remember those scribes for tracing the circles? LOL The points on mine were so sharp that my mom and I used to joke that it could be used as a lethal weapon if someone tried to attack us....haha

  22. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady
    Ito wasn't showing off her "tricks". She was doing what the rules of the time required. She was also inventive in finding ways to use her jumping proficiency because some of her other skills were not as strong as some of her competitors.

    Figure skating used to require that skaters execute figures and they comprised a very large percentage of the marks which went into winning events. Skaters who neglected figures in pursuit of jumps, didn't win. It wasn't until the ISU started phasing out figures and introduced the SP to skating that jumping started to become more important in the sport.

    By the end of the 90's, speed and jumping had become almost the sole criteria under which figure skating was judged. This had lead to skater with questionable skating skills winning major championships (Evgeny Plushenko, Surya Bonaly, Tim Goebel, Brian Joubert). CoP has sought to address this imbalance by promoting skills other than jumping. So far, it's a work in progress.
    Based on my observation in regard to skateworlds1:
    1) Midori is her favorite skater and she never sees Midori's any skating skills not as strong as her competitiors. She truly believes that Midori should have won the 92 Olympics and she also continued on and on saying how underserving Kristi's win in 92 was. She even further claimed that Kristi was not even in the same class as Midori as a skater.

    2) The only element which matters to her is jumps. I seldom see her commenting on any other aspect of skating. All she has been saying is 3/3s and quads. She also continues on and on telling us how bored she was when ladies didn't even attempt triples. One argument she provided was Peggy's win in 68. She made it sound like lots of skaters outskating Peggy at the Olympics, while in reality it was not the case. She was frustrated that Peggy refused to progress technically...

    Therefore, your very thoughtful comments probably won't work for her...

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady
    Ito wasn't showing off her "tricks". She was doing what the rules of the time required. She was also inventive in finding ways to use her jumping proficiency because some of her other skills were not as strong as some of her competitors.
    I know DL- I was only joking. Tricks are what some fans call doing more than expected jumps and sometimes really gumby positions and the Beilmans. Good post as usual.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by scootie12
    And let me tell you......figures were a real b**ch.

    I remember towards the beginning of my competitive skating that figures were not required for competitions, BUT were required as part of your USFS tests. This was before MITF were started.

    Luckily, the figures were dropped all together a bit later so I didn't have to worry about it. Otherwise, I would have been down in like Juvenile rather than Junior....LOL LOL

    Even though figures were hard, I still had some fun doing it. I was really good at doing the loop figures, but when it came to the large figure eights, my circles always came out a bit more like ovals, or one circle was bigger than the other...LOL Not to mention, I had horrible vision at the time and didn't want to wear glasses on the ice. But now I can see twice as better than 20/20 (thanks to lasik...yay).

    Anyone remember those scribes for tracing the circles? LOL The points on mine were so sharp that my mom and I used to joke that it could be used as a lethal weapon if someone tried to attack us....haha
    The nightmare years. Good post, scooty.

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    I've seen the posts which have said that skaters without 3/3's should never win. 3/3’s should be required elements, never mind that the number of women currently competing in the world who have ever executed a successful 3/3 can pretty much be counted on your fingers, and some of them haven’t executed a ratified 3/3 in the past 2 seasons (Cohen, Solkalova, Kwan).

    No one could jump like Midori, but she lacked stretch, extension and line. She had power, but no finesse. It would be a sad, sad day for skating if Elvis Stojko, Tim Goebel and Surya Bonaly were the standard to which all skaters aspired to.

    It is called “figure skating”, not “figure jumping”. I want a skater who can do it all. That’s why I’m a Michelle fan. She holds the record for the most clean 7 triple-programs of all active skaters, even if she hasn’t delivered one since 2001. Michelle’s basic skating is the best of all eligible skaters, her edges deep and secure, her posture is excellent. Her jumps aren’t the biggest, but she takes off and lands on the right edges, and has good speed in and out of them. Michelle isn’t the best spinner, but she has beautiful positions, and well centre spins. She does have the best footwork going and the best overall moves in the field, and the most variety, so that even if Michelle isn’t the “best” in every aspect of her skating, she is the best overall.

    I can remember all of the criticisms that Michelle “never pushed the envelope” and people jumping on the Cohen bandwagon because she was promising quads and 3/3’s, none of which really materialized. Those people then moved on to Kostner, who can land 3/3’s at will but can’t keep upright over her blades. Now some of these fans are oohing and aahing over Kimmie who can deliver the technical content, but they’re unhappy that her presentation lags.
    Dragonlady

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