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View Full Version : Is there anyone who wouldn't prefer Rach again???



churchofkwan
June 28th, 2005, 03:28 PM
Just wondering, there seems to be rachmania going on, but I'm personally more interested in seeing Kwan develop new programs (perhaps not in the SP if she uses Sparticus), but in new directions. I personally prefered Rach SP under 6.0, and don't want it any other way. Plus, there's always the criticism that "it was done best the first time around, so doing it again isn't smart". As a LP, I think that she's used Rach, been there done that, I'd like to see her go somewhere else in this coming season. I hope I'm not alone.

Lisa Seye
June 28th, 2005, 03:29 PM
If I had to choose, I would love to see Spartacus as a short and East of Eden as a long. I am not saying these are my favorite all time MK programs, I just love the music of both so much. And while I am at it, I would choose Fields of Gold as her exhibition. However, whatever she chooses is great as long as she does GREAT!

nymkfan51
June 28th, 2005, 03:49 PM
You're assuming she is going to use the same music, and I doubt she would. He wrote so many wonderful pieces of music, that she could skate to it every year for 10 years and not repeat the same music.

churchofkwan
June 28th, 2005, 05:22 PM
I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that I wouldn't prefer her to use the same music. Alot of people seem to be talking up Rach, and I'm just voicing my lack of interest in that possibility.

Of course he's written many classics, but I was also saying that I don't prefer to see her do more of Rach's music. Many composers have a certain sound, Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovksy, etc. I'm just saying I wouldn't prefer more Rach. I would prefer to see her skate to someone else's music.

MKGrace
June 28th, 2005, 06:28 PM
churchofkwan- I agree. As I said in another thread I'm "Rach'd out". Too many skaters have used Rach programs the past few years, and Michelle used Rach for the short in both her Olympic appearances. Although Michelle can interpret Rach like no one else, I'd like to see something different.

probativev
June 28th, 2005, 07:43 PM
I would've really liked it if she did something in a very different direction too. But if Rach is what she wants and she has a winning strategy to go with it, then I'd be very excited to see it as well.

joseph2004
June 28th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Lisaseyes, ITA!! EOE is my all time favorite program from Michelle, and she always had the best of luck when she skated to it (not that she needed any luck)...She always seemed so in peace with herself, so relaxed, so confident, and so at ease when she skated to EOE. I would love to see her bring this and work on it to fully maximize EOE and use it for the Olympics season. Joe

nymkfan51
June 29th, 2005, 02:09 AM
I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that I wouldn't prefer her to use the same music. Alot of people seem to be talking up Rach, and I'm just voicing my lack of interest in that possibility.

Pardon me, my mistake. I didn't realize you meant ALL his works.

kwanette
June 29th, 2005, 02:32 AM
From your initial post, I assumed that you were talking about her Rach music from 98 and 02, also.

I forget when MK used Rach for a lp..When was that? Thanks...

marie23
June 29th, 2005, 03:26 AM
I loved Rach as a sp but to make it a long program, no matter wath version it is (the same or another) I am just not into it, espacially after Sasha used his music last year, I think it's too much Rach, it's a great music but it so overused.
And I remember Gwendal saying at the end of the girls compet. at worlds, that he thought that girls should use more modern music, I think he was a little bit right, and if girls want to use classical music make it at least something we never heard.
So I'm in the camp of NO Rach!

Skate Sandee
June 29th, 2005, 03:27 AM
I read on another board that maybe Michelle wants to work her Olympic Rach mojo. :b You can't ignore the symbolism. She uses Rach for her SP in the last two Olympics and lands in first place after the SP, but comes up short in the LP. Maybe she's hoping that her Rach karma will translate into a perfect LP!

nymkfan51
June 29th, 2005, 04:27 AM
I was wondering that same thing kwanette ... thanks for pointing that out.
Maybe it was one of her earlier LP's?

Edited to answer Marie's post ... Sasha used Rach in the 02/03 season. Her following seasons she used Swan Lake and the Nutcracker.

lavender
June 29th, 2005, 04:29 AM
If Michelle decided to do Rach as a short program again then I would flip. However Michelle has never done a long program to Rach music. Really how can it be the same if it's a long program. There's so many different choices of music by Rach. You could come up with several very different programs.

Krista
June 29th, 2005, 04:36 AM
I think that she really connects with the Rach music, and whatever she connects with, she should definitely skate to. Although I too wouldn't want her to do another SP to Rach, a long program to Rach 2 or 3 would be great because of the new Rach music that would be in it, even if the old music was still in it as well. We're guaranteed to see her skate to some music that she hasn't skated to before. :)

shadymc
June 29th, 2005, 04:45 AM
I didn't get the impression that Michelle is going to use different music by Rach. If Tony's clue was right, he said something about taking what you have and making more out of it. That says to me that she is going to take the actual short program and extend it into a long program. So, I'm in agreement that I would have preferred to see an entirely new start with new music.

I hope this was Tatiana's idea because she has some kind of vision of what this program could be, and not Michelle's idea. I don't want to think that Michelle is still looking to the past Olympics and what she did right or wrong. I remember her saying at SLC that she tried to be more aggressive because she was told that she held back in Nagano. I would prefer to see her let go and do something fresh and different and looking toward the future.

But, with that being said, if the program is good, COP friendly and has intricate, beautiful choreography, I'll be very happy anyway.

Krista
June 29th, 2005, 04:53 AM
Well if she's extending it, she'll still be skating to a little more than a minute, at least, of new music. Unless she repeats the same music twice, from her SP :b

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 06:15 AM
From your initial post, I assumed that you were talking about her Rach music from 98 and 02, also.

Here's what I said: "As a LP, I think that she's used Rach, been there done that, I'd like to see her go somewhere else in this coming season. I hope I'm not alone".

I was saying that As for a LP, I think she's used Rach's music (even if only in her SP), been there done that composer. I'd like to see her go somewhere else in this coming season. I'd prefer to stay away from all this assuming, but maybe I wasn't clear enough when I began this thread. My appologies.

lemonade16
June 29th, 2005, 06:55 AM
shadymc wrote;

"I didn't get the impression that Michelle is going to use different music by Rach. If Tony's clue was right, he said something about taking what you have and making more out of it. That says to me that she is going to take the actual short program and extend it into a long program. So, I'm in agreement that I would have preferred to see an entirely new start with new music."

I thought that initially also. When all was said and one, however, I thought the clue meant that we were to take what we had (the anagram clue) and make something more out of it (spell out "I think Michelle is skating to Rach") or whatever the anagram spelled out exactly to be.

If Michelle skates to Rach for her LP, I expect it to be different music from her SP and I expect a different vision entirely. Otherwise, I don't see why Michelle would seek out the assistance of Tarasova.

lemonade16

TwinnerA
June 29th, 2005, 08:02 AM
I love the idea of Spartacus for the SP and EOE for the LP. EOE always gave me goosebumps like Peggy said once!

Sparks
June 29th, 2005, 08:09 AM
I don't believe that it will be "Rach again".
My feeling is that she will use a different piece (or pieces). So, this is totally NEW! New for us and new for Michelle.
:RP

Vinluvskwan
June 29th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Besides Mozart and Beethoven, Rach is one of the few piano/orchestral composers whose pieces can evoke grand, epic emotional journeys. Rach music can be light but emotionally resonant (Lulu's "Springbreeze" LP from 1996) but they can be subtly haunting and dark then suddenly switch to a sweeping crescendo when mK does the spiral to the "taNANG-TANANG-TANANG-TANANG' section (mk's SP from 1998, 2002 to "Trio from elegiaque and piano concerto in D minor opus 9").

So I think if MK is indeed skating to Rach for her LP and TT can cram enough interesting (read: CoP friendly) PC elements into the program, then i say go for it!!!:RP

marie23
June 29th, 2005, 09:30 AM
I complitly messed up with Sasha's Rach (thanks for the edit nymkfan51).
I see it's going to be a "classical" year, girls and boys are choosing classical music, I just think it's no longer that intressting to skate on that music, I think that for this new judging system you need to be abble to play with the music and a classical music has a certain "must do" in it, it's just not much freedom in it.
Unlike a more let say modern peice that sounds like if she's yours, made for you.
I love classical music and I don't want it to be pushed out but if you want to skate on that kind of music it must be a new peice. Not a deja vu, deja heard, been done already.
I just can't accept the ideea that a great skater, like Michelle, might skate on an over-overused music, no matter how good it was in the past for her.

Skatekwan6
June 29th, 2005, 09:49 AM
I don't mind Rach as long as it is something Michelle or Sasha haven't skated to before.

Lisa Seye
June 29th, 2005, 10:00 AM
JOe and Twinner ,
EOE EOE EOE EOE
Sandee,
What about the Rach Karma being again the same as in the last two Oly's: Michelle landing short of the gold in the end?

shadymc
June 29th, 2005, 10:03 AM
I thought that initially also. When all was said and one, however, I thought the clue meant that we were to take what we had (the anagram clue) and make something more out of it (spell out "I think Michelle is skating to Rach") or whatever the anagram spelled out exactly to be.

Good point, you may be right. I didn't realize that. I hope it's a whole new program.

KwanBoy23
June 29th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Been there, done that, something else? She skated to Rach 2 times so move on? OMG. So are you saying now that Michelle shouldn't skate to Puccini, Rachmaninov, Massenet, Bartok, Holdridge, Ravel, etc. Doesn't leave many composers left then after then. Mostly the not-famous or not very well known ones (off the top of my head anyways). Kinda seems like a weird form of circular logic you got there.

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 01:02 PM
"Doesn't leave many composers"?

You gotta be kidding me. There are so many composers out there. She used many "non-famous" composers anyway from 94-00. I just don't prefer to see her skate to Rachmaninov's music again. I don't see anything wrong with that. I loved Rach 98 and 02, but I think it would be best to move on and use another composer for her programs.

Here's a list of composers you didn't mention:

Mozart
Brahms
Stravinsky
Haydn
Schubert
Verdi
von Weber
Bach
Rossini
Handel
J. Williams
G. Yared
K. Jenkins
S. Barber
Holst
Mahler
Chopin
Wagner
Paganini
Glazunov
Kodaly
Elgar
Tchaikovsky
H. Hancock
A. Hovahness
Sibelius
Lalo
Janáček
Vivaldi
Schumann
Mendelssohn
Vieuxtemps
Respighi

The list goes on and on. You get the point.

MKGrace
June 29th, 2005, 01:03 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>She skated to Rach 2 times so move on? OMG. So are you saying now that Michelle shouldn't skate to Puccini, Rachmaninov, Massenet, Bartok, Holdridge, Ravel, etc. Doesn't leave many composers left then after then.<hr></blockquote> Michelle has skated twice already to Rach, including the last Olympics. Michelle hasn't even skated once to some of these others listed. I don't see the comparison.

Rach music is overused. There's nothing wrong with having or sharing that opinion. Skating to Rach again is playing it safe. Michelle has dozens of other options to choose from, as evidenced by Churchofkwan's list. And that's just a list of composers, not the music selections! <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/eek.gif" />If anyone is capable of taking any of these composers' music and making a great and memorable program out of it, it's Michelle.

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 01:26 PM
I believe MKGrace was talking about MK's Rach SP that's been done two seasons.

Since there seems to be some confusion, maybe we should say Rach98, Rach 02, Rach music (in general terms),etc.

I'm not sure if I would say that Michelle would be playing it safe using Rach98/02 music, but it would definately be easier for her given that she's already done it twice at the Olympics and seasons past. It wouldn't be as much of a risk. Not that Michelle has to risk anything there, but really I think that it might be easier for Michelle to adapt to the new judging system using music that is also new.

GardenKitty
June 29th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Puccini - Tosca
Rachmaninov - her Olympic SP's
Massenet - Ariane and Dream of Desdemona
Bartok - Miraculous Mandarin
Holdredge - East of Eden
Ravel - Bolero

MKGrace
June 29th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Obviously I'm no classical music expert, but the Rach music I've heard does sound similar...certainly recognizable. It's not hard to hear a piece on the radio and know who it is. Primarily we hear Rach 2, 3, Paginini in skating. By playing it "safe" I mean Rach isn't likely to stretch Michelle artistically or display a different look or nuances on the ice. Her past programs to Rach, Bartok, Ravel, Massenet, Rimsky-Korsokov, Eric Clapton, Beatles etc. have shown us different looks and moods and emotions from Michelle. I'd like her to continue that journey next season under the new system. Not that she used to do anything different, but I get the sense it's time for her to go all out next season to win the Gold.

KwanBoy23
June 29th, 2005, 01:53 PM
Oh so NOW we want her to skate to "normal" music that every other skater and their mother has skated too? :rolleyes And non-famous composers she's skated to? A few perhaps, but the majority of her work is from famous composers, just not their "most famous" work.

Some people. That's all I have to say. Get her to skate to Moonlight Sonata or Swan Lake or Malageuna then, I guess that's better than "no more Rach".

But for the record then, here are all the composers she has already skated to...

Khachaturian
Rodrigo
Rimsky-Korsakov
Villa-Lobos
Dvorák
Bizet
Alwyn
Satie
Gliere
Jarre
Amirov
Bacarisse
Kelly
Rosza
Strauss
Saint-Saens
Shostakovich
Walton

...and of course Eric Clapton, the Beatles, and John Corilgano (sp on that one! LOL). Yes there is still quite a few other composers and skatable music but it's all a "been there, done that" for quite a few skaters. What's so wrong with Rachmaninov and his huge list of works?

taytay165
June 29th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Just my 2 cents - I think that Michelle could take any piece of music from any composor and go all out to make it a masterpiece and it would be anything but safe. I am one who likes the idea of Rach, but then again I would probably love anything she skated to! lol But anyway, I think a program to new piece of Rach (not what she skated to in '98 and '02 although I loved that) could/will be magical and very "Kwan - like" (not safe). Like I said, JMHO.

- tara:FL

Sparks
June 29th, 2005, 02:00 PM
LOL! Kwanboy, you forgot Bartok! :lol

nymkfan51
June 29th, 2005, 02:09 PM
I guess I just feel differently than some of you.
If skating to music that she has used before will make her more comfortable and relaxed, and skate better ... than count me in as wanting this!!! I could care less if she stretches herself artistically. She doesn't have to do anything different or new to please me ... whatever makes her happy will make me happy.
It seems to me that there are so many complaints about overused music, but why is this music so overused? Maybe because it's great for skating. Wow, there's a concept.

nymkfan51
June 29th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Rach music is overused. There's nothing wrong with having or sharing that opinion. Skating to Rach again is playing it safe.

Huh?
I agree that one can have an opinion about which music they want a skater to use, but how on earth do you figure skating to Rach is playing it safe? If she has never skated to that particular piece of music, exactly what about it makes it safe?
Unless of course, you think all Rach music sounds the same. :\

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 02:23 PM
I'm not interested in having an attitude, Kwanboy. It would be nice to be able to discuss this more maturely :) I wasn't aware that MK had ever skated to Walton though. I'm only familiar with William Walton.

I never said I'd prefer Michelle to skate to something everyone else has done. There are many underused pieces from lesser-known and better-known composers. Of course many of the well-known composers have a distinct sound to their pieces, and I happen to agree with MKGrace, that skating to one of their works can be like skating to many of their works b/c the skater evokes a certain image when they interpret the work. Skaters/Choreos/Coaches just choose the best cuts from composers' works. Therefore it's possible that skating to any of Rachmaninov's other works would suggest a similar feel/character from Michelle.


The big idea I had behind this thread was that skating to something with a new feeling to it would help her adapt to the new system where she's not allowed many chances to return to 6.0 sensibilities.


It seems to me that there are so many complaints about overused music, but why is this music so overused?

Maybe because it's great for skating. Wow, there's a concept.

Music isn't a one size fits all. I'm sure I'll enjoy whatever she skates to, but I can still disagree with what she chooses. MK can't please everyone, but everyone can still have their opinion about MK's choices even if they have to deal with attitudecentral just to have the opinion.

kwanette
June 29th, 2005, 02:24 PM
taytay, ITA.

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Hun, I'm a classical musician. Have been one for over 10 years now. I know Rach. I've heard many of his works. Have videos and DVDs of his stuff. Played a few of his symphonies and under many pianists in his concerti. Listened to countless preludes and works for piano by Kissin, Argerich, Axe, and Uchida. Nothin new for me.

Sorry if you've had a bad day, but a little disagreement's nothing to get upset about ;)

scheherazade
June 29th, 2005, 02:54 PM
Like I said, different strokes for different folks. But I find debrox is great in getting wax out of my ears! ;)

skatingfan5
June 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
I guess what's "sad" to me is that people are already pre-disposed not to like Michelle's new LP, whatever it is, if it happens to be by a certain Russian composer, because they already have a lot of reasons why it would be "better" for Michelle to have chosen something else. It's not like we are all posting our "wishes" or "hopes" for what music Michelle might skate to -- it's sighing resignation of why some really would rather that Michelle had NOT chosen what she did (IF she did). If mzheng is to be believed, the program is already choreographed -- so not much is likely to change the fact that it is what it is, whatever that is. Can't people even wait to see the program before they dismiss it as not the best that Michelle could have chosen?

I'll admit that I posted my dislike of "Bolero" as a musical composition when I learned that Michelle would be using it. However, I said that perhaps she would be able to do something with it, so I would wait and see. At its debut I was pleasantly surprised -- I didn't hate it. :lol Of course, I never really grew to love it, but that was my dislike of the music as much as anything and also the fact that it didn't really seem suited to Michelle's style of skating. There is a lot that Ravel composed that I do like -- but that's one piece I never have, and likely never will. As for Rachmaninoff -- I happen to really like a lot of his music, so the chances are better than average, I will like the piece the has been chosen. I don't have anything else that I would recommend as a specific alternative -- although I realize that there is a vast range of music out there, even if much/most is not really suitable for competitive skating programs. Michelle is who will be putting her skills and reputation on the line -- if she likes the music, that's the most important thing. People can theorize all they want as to what would be "easier to do CoP programs to" or "better to interpret" -- in the end, it is MK would will actually be doing it. I will wait the debut of her new program with hopeful anticipation. :)

MKGrace
June 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But I find debrox is great in getting wax out of my ears! <hr></blockquote> Huh?? What's that you said?

nymkfan51
June 29th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Amen, skatingfan5! :)

kwanette
June 29th, 2005, 03:33 PM
skatingfan5, well said, as always...

scheherazade
June 29th, 2005, 03:50 PM
For some reason, this thread makes me a tad bit angry. Maybe it's because I got stuck in a thunderstorm, maybe it's because I've had a migraine from this damn humidity for the past five days, but I'm going to climb atop my little soapbox for a moment, so bear with me.

It seems to those who think all Rach sounds the same, you maybe haven't even listened to a full concerto, or a full sonata, or a full symphony of Sergei Rachmaninov. This morning, I listened to the full Piano Concerto No. 3, and the 45 minute-length of the piece takes you through such a crazy emotional roller coaster. Also note the length of that piece -- there are SO many different portions of Concerto No. 3, or Concerto No. 2, or different variations on his Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini that no skater (or very, very few) has skated to. People all over the board are crying over the fact that she might skate to the 2nd Concerto, and that, OMG, Sasha and Lulu both skated to it -- well, you know what? Sasha only skated to bits of the first movement. Lulu mostly (or only? not 100% positive) skated to bits of the second. There are three movements to any concerto.

Rachmaninov's music is huge -- it's grand, it's sweeping, it's got that quality that Michelle innately has: it's got the ability to take you on amazing journeys. It pulls at your heart. And if she is skating to it, don't be so sure it's something you've heard 1,000 times blaring out a sound system in an arena somewhere. And if it is? So what? Michelle has an ability like no other to take a piece of music and make it her own. If you prefer the 'proper' quality of Baroque or Classical music as opposed to the overwhelming passion of someone like Rachmaninov, well then, different strokes for different folks. But certainly don't knock it until you've seen it or heard it. That's just sad.

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 04:14 PM
I'm not predisposed to dislike MK's new LP. I have no idea what it is. I actually hadn't read through all the bzillion some-odd pages of spoilers to understand what happened, but I do know that Rach would definately be an option for her SP. I also know that people around here have been acting strange around the hint of Rach's music (whichever piece it is) being used for a LP. I am just voicing my opinion about what's going on around here and what I imagine would seem obvious from her skating to the Rach SP in both of the Olympic seasons she has competed at the Olympics. I have no idea what Michelle's chosen, and quite frankly would prefer not to know til she first skates to it.


It's not like we are all posting our "wishes" or "hopes" for what music Michelle might skate to

Have you seen the thread in MK Chat, "What music would you love for Michelle to skate to?"

To me, "what is best for Michelle" is what she brings to her program, not which program she uses. Using music that is more preferable to me would just be an added plus, that's all. As a musician, I guess you could say I have a sensitive musical taste, so this is what I was refering to when I talked about being ready for something besides Rach.

skatingfan5
June 29th, 2005, 04:15 PM
I actually hadn't read through all the bzillion some-odd pages of spoilers to understand what happened, but I do know that Rach would definately be an option for her SP. If you had read the long thread in Spoilers, then you would find that there has been virtually no discussion at all of Rach being an option for Michelle's SP this season, much less a definite one.
Have you seen the thread in MK Chat, "What music would you love for Michelle to skate to?"Yes I have -- and that thread was begun 16 months ago and all but the last dozen posts go back to before summer 2004. And that is not what this thread has been about -- or at least not what it has seemed to be to me. As I said, there is a very, very strong indication that whatever Michelle's long program music might be, it has already been choreographed, so it is pretty much a done deal. That's why I said it wasn't as if people were posting their wishes or hopes -- it's already been chosen and you and others have been posting their feelings about the choice, if it happens to be something/anything by S.R. "As a LP, I think that she's used Rach, been there done that, I'd like to see her go somewhere else in this coming season. I hope I'm not alone."
To me, "what is best for Michelle" is what she brings to her program, not which program she uses. Using music that is more preferable to me would just be an added plus, that's all. But your statements seemed to say otherwise to me -- that you did think choosing something "different" would be best for Michelle, not just preferable to you:
"I loved Rach 98 and 02, but I think it would be best to move on and use another composer for her programs."

"Not that Michelle has to risk anything there, but really I think that it might be easier for Michelle to adapt to the new judging system using music that is also new."

"The big idea I had behind this thread was that skating to something with a new feeling to it would help her adapt to the new system where she's not allowed many chances to return to 6.0 sensibilities."
As a musician, I guess you could say I have a sensitive musical taste, so this is what I was refering to when I talked about being ready for something besides Rach.I am not a musician, and I don't know what a "sensitive musical taste" is so I probably don't have it. At various times I really can appreciate the flat-out, full-bore virtuosity of something like the Siebelius Violin Concerto or the Rachmaninoff #3 piano concerto, at other times I'd prefer something by Bach, perhaps the Goldberg variations or a simple Schubert song. I really enjoy opera, from Mozart to Bizet to Verdi to Puccini to Donizetti ... anything but Wagner. :lol OK, even Wagner if in very small doses. I like ragtime and blues and pre-80's gospel and soul. I like Gershwin and Debussy and Beethoven, Brahms, and Berlioz. I like a lot and I certainly agree with you that "There are many underused pieces from lesser-known and better-known composers." However, as I said before, I don't have any specific suggestions for what I think Michelle might better have chosen than anything by S.R. Could you name something specific that you would prefer her to skate to? I don't seem to recall you posting anything in the "what would you love MK to skate to?" thread.

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 04:39 PM
If you had read the long thread in Spoilers, then you would find that there has been virtually no discussion at all of Rach being an option for Michelle's SP this season, much less a definite one.

The rachmania came from somewhere, especially in terms of a LP. I only mentioned the SP, b/c we all know that she's skated it at each Oly. It's not like that is so far out there.



There is a very, very strong indication that whatever Michelle's long program music might be, it has already been choreographed, so it is pretty much a done deal. That's why I said it wasn't as if people were posting their wishes or hopes -- it's already been chosen and you and others have been posting their feelings about the choice, if it happens to be something/anything by S.R. "As a LP, I think that she's used Rach, been there done that, I'd like to see her go somewhere else in this coming season. I hope I'm not alone."

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with posting feelings (pro AND con) about certain types of music. I already said that I imagine I'll enjoy whatever it is she chooses, but I can still disagree with the choice.




But your statements seemed to say otherwise to me -- that you did think choosing something "different" would be best for Michelle, not just preferable to you:

I never had that in mind. I was just saying that I would much prefer to see her do something else. If anything, I think some people are getting "what Michelle does best" and "what would be best for Michelle" mixed up. If you examined my last few posts, you'd see that there was a positive aspect to my wishes. I said that I believe new music would help her to adapt to a new system of judging. Using music she would have used under 6.0 might attach her to too many 6.0 sensibilities to feel comfortable under the new system. I added that a different composer's music might be more easy to find a mood/character that is more CoP friendly than previous 6.0 ones had been.




Could you name something specific that you would prefer her to skate to? I don't seem to recall you posting anything in the "what would you love MK to skate to?" thread.

That's cool. I've actually made quite a few LP edits (I edit music btw). So here are a couple of ideas (not that I really had any intention to put them here, b/c I was just commenting about Rach):

Korngold Violin Concerto
'Sirenes' from Debussy's Three Nocturnes for Orchestra

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 04:46 PM
I'll go ahead and post the link to one of the pieces, the Korngold in the Cloud Nine DL section, if you'd like. I'm prepairing a montage to it, so I'll post that there sometime next week.

skatingfan5
June 29th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I was just saying that I would much prefer to see her do something else. If anything, I think some people are getting "what Michelle does best" and "what would be best for Michelle" mixed up. If you examined my last few posts, you'd see that there was a positive aspect to my wishes. I said that I believe new music would help her to adapt to a new system of judging. Using music she would have used under 6.0 might attach her to too many 6.0 sensibilities to feel comfortable under the new system. I added that a different composer's music might be more easy to find a mood/character that is more CoP friendly than previous 6.0 ones had been.Well, I guess we have a definite difference in meaning of words here, because after saying you just would prefer MK skate to something different, you then repeat what I posted that you gave as reasons why something different would be better for Michelle (help her adapt to CoP, etc.). What I don't understand is why you feel that something you call "6.0 sensibilities" are a hinderance to skating well under CoP. There is nothing about CoP that requires a certain mood or character from Michelle or any skater. It just requires different elements than she has been doing (spins, spirals) to get the highest levels of difficulty and more in-betweens than in her last few years to up the choreo and transition program component scores.

As for your music suggestions, I have always liked the Korngold but I'm not familiar with the Debussy (though perhaps I would recognize it if I heard it).

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Korngold Violin Concerto LP in CNDL section (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmichellekwanforumfrm20.showMessage?topicID=243.to pic)

I'll post the Debussy montage I made too

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Debussy Sirenes MK montage in CNDL (http://p216.ezboard.com/fmichellekwanforumfrm20.showMessage?topicID=245.to pic)

skatingfan5
June 29th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Bryan: Thanks for the Korngold edit -- it was very nice -- though I had a hard time figuring out where I would/could place the various required skating elements to fit with the music -- what did you visualize for the first 40 seconds and the second quarter of the piece (basically the second minute)? I thought that the last 30 seconds would work very well to end the program -- lots of possibilities there, but some of the other sections, I just don't know.

As far a Spartacus is concerned, many are still thinking that Michelle may well keep it for this coming season. I thought it worked well last season. "Bolero" I don't think would have really worked no matter which system was used to judge it, but I think the main problem was that Michelle kept changing it and didn't really include all the features she needed for it to do well under CoP until Worlds -- not enough practice with the new spins and spiral positions. I think some of Michelle's 1997-2001 programs would have worked out fine with modifications for CoP (some more significant than others because of the new rules on max # of spins, full spiral sequence required, etc.).

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 06:01 PM
What I don't understand is why you feel that something you call "6.0 sensibilities" are a hinderance to skating well under CoP. There is nothing about CoP that requires a certain mood or character from Michelle or any skater. It just requires different elements than she has been doing (spins, spirals) to get the highest levels of difficulty and more in-betweens than in her last few years to up the choreo and transition program component scores.

I think her previous programs, LPs especially, have attachments to the 6.0 system. Take Bolero for example. As hard as she tried to adapt it, it just didn't work. Maybe Bolero's not the best example, b/c she only competed under CoP with it once, but you could see her trying to adapt a program that wasn't created for the CoP. It just didn't work. I think she might have the same problem with some of her past LPs as well as pieces of music/composers' representative music that she has used that she would be interested in using for a new LP.

I began this thread by actually saying that I would prefer her to keep Spartacus. I remember a thread here not long after the season ended asking people if they would like her to keep Spartacus. I enjoy the music, and it obviously worked very well for her under CoP, as I'm sure all her SPs would. Of course, that brings me back to prefering something new :lol That's just me, sometimes it's better not to ask why:) It's just how I feel about her big selection process for the coming season (whether it's done, not done, done 8 years ago).

churchofkwan
June 29th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Bryan: Thanks for the Korngold edit -- it was very nice -- though I had a hard time figuring out where I would/could place the various required skating elements to fit with the music -- what did you visualize for the first 40 seconds and the second quarter of the piece (basically the second minute)? I thought that the last 30 seconds would work very well to end the program -- lots of possibilities there, but some of the other sections, I just don't know.

Thanks, I really didn't visualize everything beforehand, but...let's see :)

First 40 Secs: intro pose into light footwork, somewhat like Spartacus, not completly sure though...it works out so well in the montage, even though it's not fully choreographed. Like I said, I'll post the montage to it soon.

0:35 preparation into 2x
0:38 2x

About the second half...
Footwork similar to Aranjuez
MITF

2:30 3t
choreo
posing

2:46 prep for spiral
2:53 spiral sequence

3:13 into layback w/hands behind back

3:22 choreo w/ lots of use of arms to pull audience in

after that, it's a good question:rollin until 3:39 I know she'd need a jump in sometime before the final footwork into death drop into combination spin.

skatingfan5
June 30th, 2005, 05:14 AM
As you see, it's not so easy to pick music that will fit well with skating elements, especially triple jumps and jump combinations. Maybe there is a reason why some music is used over and over again -- because it works! I'm sure that with sufficient motivation and dedication, more pieces would/could be found -- but Lori Nichol was known for listening to hundreds and hundreds of CD's when working on a program.

Back to the Korngold, I could easily visualize MITF, footwork, spirals, and even spins to some of the music in your edit, but there were only two or three places where I thought a jump would work well. I'm sure you envisioned more than a double axel in her program! :p And you didn't tell me what would go in the second quarter (i.e., from about 1:00-2:00).

marie23
June 30th, 2005, 06:30 AM
This music is just great (Korngold edit).
OK, since we are at making coreographies here is what I thought:
I think that she could have a combo and a 2x in her first 45 sec, then a triple loop, then a spin, and more jumps - a sec combo and of course many transitions, movements.
From -2:03 (there is a section that ressembles to the one from Aranjuez, the one just before the spiral sec) a footwork into a triple flip (that should be landed on the music "break") and then go right into another footwork into a 3 toe loop, and continue with many arm movements.
From -1:30 (let's say) the prep. for the spiral sequence that will start at -1:14.
After the Spiral she could add a triple lutz, a spread eagle, and prepar for the final footwork into a spin (not a combo, that will be put somewhere else, if I find out where I'll let you know :b ) that will end with her well known positon.

And here is a second version:
Watching her past programs she's doing a triple flip and then a 2x into a spin so let's say that for the first 50 sec (or more) she does the combo and then hit a triple flip into 2x into a spin.
In that case we can change and put a footwork into a triple lutz (after that, the footwork into a triple toe loop).
And change her last jump into a combo (the fird one).

Of course if she's having a 3/3 combo (3toe/3toe) that changes a lot of things because usually she's not repeting the jump in single (the toe loop).
So if her LP has two combo of 3/3 that means that she'll have only 2/ 3 toe and 1/ 3 loop (I read somewhere that she was trying the 3 salc/ 3 loop combo ), her fird combo being a 3/2/2 (first a 3 lutz).
In conclusion, the nomber of jumps shall be 2- 3lutz, 2- 3slac, 2- 3 toe, 1- 3loop, 1- 3flip, 1- 2x, so 8 triples and a 1- 2 axel and 2 other 2.
I guess that this might be the jumps needed to get a medal (a gold medal), not forgetting about the spins with many changing position and the steps.
For the spins she's added more speed to them and she's having various changes so the level will be quit high (I guess, I'm not in love - yet- with this new system).
So this are my thoughts.
I think this program should be more in Ariane style (she had 7 triples in that prog, a great one)

There are much more jumps to be added though
I think that adding spins after a jump raises the difficulty of the program, is that true?
This can become a really good coreo if we try hard.
Hope you enjoy :CK

P.S. You "forgot" to add the jumps and I almost didn't put the spins

churchofkwan
June 30th, 2005, 07:29 AM
skatingfan5, you only asked about the first 40 seconds and then the last 2 minutes. I'm not a choreographer. I just enjoy editing music. I could always go back and edit the music if I felt like it. The point of suggesting the music was only to show that there is definately other stuff out there. Your analysis leaves open the liklyhood that new (modern) music that isn't apart of the staples of the skating repertoire might be just as useful, if not more useful than the overused stuff. Much of the music that "works" is actually music that has long been idolized in other fields, such as opera, ballet, etc. People just find ways of using it over again.

I've actually edited a few of Michelle's program music, and I can honestly tell you that the edits she has used had many many cuts and weren't pieces of music that easily fit, especially Miraculous Mandarin.

Marie23, that's amazing :)

skatingfan5
June 30th, 2005, 07:30 AM
skatingfan5, you only asked about the first 40 seconds and then the last 2 minutes. No, I asked about the first 40 seconds and the "second quarter of the piece (basically the second minute)?"
I'm not a choreographer. I just enjoy editing music. I could always go back and edit the music if I felt like it. The point of suggesting the music was only to show that there is definately other stuff out there.Well, of course there is other stuff out there -- but for those calling for other music, what specifically is out there that would work well for skating in general, and Michelle's in particular. I know that you are not a choreographer -- and neither am I. However, I know that you can't just randomly plunk down elements with music playing in the background -- unless that is what you want the final product to look like. That's why I asked what you had in mind. Since you edited the piece down to the 4:10 max of a long program, I thought that you did choose the music with the skating movements in mind. As I listened to the music -- which I told you I liked -- I just could not envision a competitive skating program to much of it. If it were an exhibition, where jumps were minimal and MITF were the main thing, that would be something different.

It seems to be pointless to belabor this, so I'll just thank you again for providing the Korngold edit.

marie23
June 30th, 2005, 10:18 AM
I think that the Korngold edit, made by churchofkwan is really good, and can be used for an LP with some adjusment: the time limit- it's not quite 4:10, it's 4:08 but it's very short in time, the 10 sec that a skater can add are just in case (that's how I see it) they have a change in their prog or something goes wrong so a 4:00 +2/3 sec would be much better.
The parts that could be taken away might be from the second minut and a little bit from the last part of the fird minut or wathever, in any case the time is not a problem.

Like I said this programe reminds me of Ariane and I think that in some part it's got some Red Violin in it.
It's a difficult but passionat music, and very hard to skate trough it because, I think, the rythm must be sustaind during the hole programe with few breaks.
Anyway I have another version of what I would imagine someone could do on that music (Michelle of course):
The first 60 sec: -3lutz/2/2, then a 3flip into a 2 axel into a spin
At 1:20 the 3/2 combo (sal/loop)
1:25 star of a circular footwork
1:53 a 3loop
1:58 a layback spin
At 2:03 footwork into a 3lutz (landed at 2:11 - the music break) and right back into another footwork to jump a 3sal
2:25 spin combo
2:52 start of the spiral sequence
3:34 the second 3/3 combo (3toe/3toe)
And a final straight line footwork ended with a spin.
I had a spread eagle in it but fought it should be a programe made for 4 minuts so after the last combo she would have 20 sec and more to end the footwork and make the spin in time.

So in conclusion 8 triples, 4 spins, 2 step line, a spiral sequence and of course other movements, transitions etc

Anyway do you believe that Michelle can and will do a 8 triple program?

OK that's it for me.
:SP :CK :FL

P.S. I don't know well the rules but I think you can repet a jump in combo, so you can jump a 3toe/3toe and still be alowed to make single 3toe, if not then this new system it's really stupid, a complet nonsens!

skatingfan5
June 30th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Anyway do you believe that Michelle can and will do a 9 triple program? No -- Since Michelle hasn't had a 7-triple performance in the past two years, what makes you believe she would do 9?!?! Even if she (or any other skater) would attempt that, it would not be allowed, even if they could accomplish it physically. The Zayak rule against repeated jumps of 3 revs or more still holds, so the most triples that any lady would be allowed is 8 -- and that would mean that the skater had a triple axel. Otherwise, the limit is 7 (only two different types of triple can be repeated) plus it would have to include a triple-triple combo (or a 2A-triple combo) in order to fit these jumps into the 7 allowable jumping passes for the LP.

marie23
June 30th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Like I said before I'm not that in love with that new system.
But, correct me if I'm wrong, if Michelle has a 3/3 combo (3toe/3toe) she can not repet the toe loop in a single jump?
Anyway if girls can't make more then 7 triples that is even better, I was trying to find more and more spaces to put jumps, in that way I'll change a few things on my coreo :b .
And I think Michelle can easly do a program with 7 triple but so can most of the girls that will fight for a medal (Sasha I don't know, but Irina, Carolina, Shizuka, Fumie, Ando - they all could have even 8 triples)

skatingfan5
June 30th, 2005, 12:28 PM
Like I said before I'm not that in love with that new system. But, correct me if I'm wrong, if Michelle has a 3/3 combo (3toe/3toe) she can not repet the toe loop in a single jump? She's done it before (it was the worlds pro but..).The previous 6.0 system had the same limit on the number of jumps (Zayak rule) as the New Judging System does. The main difference is that before there wasn't a limit on the number of jumping passes one could use to accomplish the maximum number of jumps -- now it is limited, which means to get the max, a skater will need a triple-triple or triple-2axel combination or sequence.

Michelle has never had three triple toe loops in a program--in the programs that she had a 3T-3T, it was only if she missed the triple-triple (down-grading it to a 3T-2T) that she would sometimes put in another 3T. Her World Pros "Ariane" had 7 triples -- but no triple-triple combo.

marie23
June 30th, 2005, 01:13 PM
OK, I watched the program again and you're right it doesn't have the 3T/3T combo. I messed up because I watched TRV earlier.
I'll edit my post later.