View Full Version : Which do you think would be more painful at the Olympics

June 27th, 2005, 06:27 PM
As Kwan fans we have experienced both types of losses at the Olympics.
In 1998 Michelle skated well and was oh so close to winning but was lost in a narrow victory to Tara.

In 2002 She didn't skate well and lost in a fairly unanimous decision to Sarah. At least in the Long Program.

If Michelle HAD to not win at next years Olymics (GOD FORBID!!)
Which scenario would be more tolerable? Michelle skating amazingly well and comes withing .5 of winning, and looses litterally on the amount of points a skater get's for a positive GOE of a single move.

Or she skates well with heart, just just doesn't have the points to challenge for the Gold, and maybe places in 3rd.

I think i'd rather have the second scenario. The devastation of knowing that she came that close to winning and knowing that if one judge had given her even 2 or 3 points higher on a GOE, she would have accomplished her dream would be to much for me.

That's why I was so hurt in 98, because she skated so well, and came so close to winning.

I wasn't as upset in 2002 because I knew that with the way she skated she didn't really have a shot of winning. It was easier to cope with Michelle not skating well and loosing, than her skating great and loosing.

But this is just an off-season question. I'm keeping my hopes on her taking it all next season!! I say take no prisoners!!

June 27th, 2005, 06:28 PM
For me, it would be more painful if she did not skate well. As long as Michelle is happy with the way she skates, then no matter what the outcome, all is good. She's already a legend. But I wouldn't like it if she came away from these Olympics with regrets, such as "if only I hadn't touched down on the flip." If she feels like she gave it her all - and that's all that is in her control - then she can only feel happy about herself, no matter what the judges do.

June 27th, 2005, 06:32 PM
I agree TongueNCheek. I'd much rather see her skate well and know that she gave it her all, rather than her falling and always wondering what might have been.

June 27th, 2005, 06:52 PM
I agree I would rather her skate well and capture everyone's heart.

June 27th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Capture everyone's heart! Absolutely!

June 27th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Be happy and skate well.

June 28th, 2005, 12:29 AM
In 02, MK lost in an unfair decision to Irina.

June 28th, 2005, 01:46 AM
Just as long as she skates her best is what I would hope for the most. Not another heartbreak please.

June 28th, 2005, 03:21 AM
First of all, I could never concede (even for this thread) that she will lose. Sorry.:\

Secondly, I agree with kwanette. She absolutely had a shot of winning in SLC ... in fact she should have won. If the judges had placed her 2nd in the LP where she deserved, she would be the OGM today.

June 28th, 2005, 04:38 AM
nymkfan51 -- please concede, at least for purposes of not tempting the skate gods. Last season, on this thread there was one on Michelle's 6th World title; FSU has Joannie Rochette winning her first; and at the beginning of the season, Peggy had Shizuka as the one to beat.

Please God -- just let her skate well and have fun. I don't care if she gets gold or not -- as long as she (and the public) feel that she got what she deserved -- or was robbed. The absolute worst thing would (IMHO) not be a loss but would be a win that the public didn't think she deserved -- as would have happened if the judges put her in second, like it happened at SA in October of '01 (because Irina didn't fall). What is worse -- the bronze with everyone talking about her grace in defeat or the gold with everyone talking about her poor sportsmanship in not giving it up, like they did with Paul Hamm?

June 28th, 2005, 04:39 AM
attyfan ... I've learned not to worry about what the public thinks. I guess maybe we disagree. If she had won in SLC it would have been totally fair. If you remember the commentary after Irina skated ... Scott was setting the groundwork for what I think he believed would be the outcome ... that is Irina coming in 3rd in the LP and thus, Michelle taking gold.
You might have had some folks thinking Sarah should have won based on that night's performance, but sorry ... we don't change the rules of the competition to make the audience happy. (okay, so Joe Inman does, but nobody else) There was a SP as well as the long. The two combined determine the winner. If we just want to give it to the skater with the best LP, regardless of anything else, than why bother making the skaters skate the SP?
In fact, if this was the way things were done, many OGM's today would never have won their titles ... since they didn't win their LP's.

June 28th, 2005, 05:28 AM
nymkfan51 -- I agree that a gold for Michelle would have been fair and that Scott was laying the groundwork for the judges to give it to her. However, Peggy also laid the groundwork for public acceptance of Michelle's win at SA. All that happened is that the press drove Michelle to tears. Furthermore, what the public thinks is important, simply because it is public opinion that drives Michelle into long term contracts with COI, fat offers to go with SOI, and her endorsements. Paul Hamm, for example, was vindicated -- he defeated the Korean guy inother events, and, tapes revealed that the Korean guy made a mistake that the judges didn't catch -- but would have prevented him from winning gold if they had caught it, even if the other error had been corrected. Hamm still hasn't gotten the fat endorsements that he might have expected, simply because of the controversy

My basic point, though, is that I would rather see people praising Michelle to the skies -- both for her skating and her behavior -- than to see them complaining how the sport must be corrupt to give her the win.

June 28th, 2005, 05:29 AM
Frankly Scott Hamilton is a bogus commentator.

He get's so over zealous and sure of himself, and how many times has he dissapointed his public with his innacurate predicitions?

98Olympics (tara and Michelle) "If Michelle skates clean nobody can beat her"

2002 Pairs??

June 28th, 2005, 07:25 AM
ITA w/ gaymenloveMK and tongueincheek. I and probably the majority of ardent, true MK fans would love to witness MK cap off her Olympic career w/ her best Oly showing RATHER than see her win OGM (knock on wood she does) based on a flawed, widely contested skate. By personal best I mean MK would come off the ice luminous and beaming w/ personal pride, as if she has just been mesmerized by a choir of lyre-playing angels, from a LP that is technically and artistically up to her capability: all triples landed, fast well-centered spins, on-tempo passionate footwork, smooth transitions and cross-overs, her typical deep-edge spiral, and finishing on a high note. I would not impose/demand high CoP level elements as MK can only do so much, and already by being around for such a long time she's blessed us w/ her talent and inspired us w/ her grace and behavior. As much as I wish MK do as many difficult CoP elements, it really comes down to the final 1 min 40 sec and 4min 30 sec.

So to sum it all up, personal best not only entails a technically and artistically strong SP and LP, but also inspired disposition and behavior.:RB :LP :FL

June 28th, 2005, 07:26 AM
And MK defeated Sarah (handily) 4 times after SLC...

nymkfan51, brilliant....

June 28th, 2005, 07:35 AM
I want her to skate her best and have a damn good time. We all know that judges are stupid sometimes...Michelle has taught me that happiness and satisfaction do not come from the approval of others, for four minutes, on a random night in February.

As long as she skates her best, and has her dream Olympic skate, then I will be thrilled, and I will cheer for days...you can count on that:)

I cried very different tears for Salt Lake than I did for Nagano.

June 28th, 2005, 07:48 AM
Well in a perfect world, Michelle would skate the program of her life and win. But since very few things in life ever turn out just the way we would want them to ... I will take a flawed program, won fair and square, in a heartbeat. And don't think she wouldn't either!

Tha Paul Hamm example is not a good one. Although it was no fault of his that there was an error which prevented someone else from winning ... the fact was that due to a 3rd party, the legitimate winner did not get the gold.
I am not advocating that Michelle win if she doesn't deserve it ... just saying that she did deserve it in SLC, and very few people today would ever remember the particulars of what happened.

June 28th, 2005, 08:14 AM
I'm not going to jinx her to say it explicitly.
All I'm hoping is she skates her best, happy with her own skating. And if it's a close call, this time (IMO, 1998's LP and 2002's overall both were close calls) judges in favor of her.

God must send her to this earth with something in HIS mind. I can always hope....

June 28th, 2005, 08:33 AM
I am not advocating that Michelle win if she doesn't deserve it ... just saying that she did deserve it in SLC, and very few people today would ever remember the particulars of what happened. nymkfan51--ITA. In fact, I have bumped into a handful of folks who don't follow figure skating very closely who actually thought Michelle had won an Olympic Gold Medal already and where shocked to find out she had not. I don't why they believed she had won. It's probably a combination of her longevity, the fact that she is so great, plus the number of National & World titles. Perhaps they were confusing some of her World Titles with an Olympic Title.

June 28th, 2005, 08:36 AM
God must send her to this earth with something in HIS mind. I can always hope....

What a beautiful thought mzheng! :angel

June 28th, 2005, 02:17 PM
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June 29th, 2005, 07:07 AM
In 02, MK lost in an unfair decision to Irina!!!

Kwanette -- I completely agree.

Even Sandra Bezic sounded shocked when Irina's scores came up and she stated "those are high!!" and then later about her jumps "...but they weren't clean, Scott".

I will always believe it was an unfair decision. That's definitely the story and I'm sticking to it as well.

June 29th, 2005, 12:48 PM
As fudged as Irina's landings were, none of them were less than one foot on the ice; no double-footings and no almost falling (aince Michelle didn't actually "fall" on the flip ;) ) and I am one of the few to this day that will say Irina 2nd in the LP at SLC no problem. Now the judges who put her in FIRST I still have no idea except they were smoking more of that good stuff. :lol

June 29th, 2005, 01:06 PM
I agree - I never saw any 2-footed landings from Irina. The second 3lutz was clean -- watch it frame by frame. I thought that was a reckless comment from Bezic. Irina had 5 clean triple jumps and 1 major wobbler.

June 29th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Well, KwanBoy, I have no problem with IS 2nd place LP.

That said my take was, FS judging will never be absolutely objective, even with CoP system. There has always been and will be the competetions can go either way. If in 1994 (I don't watch amature FS competetion that closely before that) judges can make justification by placing an artistry profeciency Ocsana B. over a techically profecient Nancy (my preference then was with judges. lol). Why they can't do it again at 1998 by place Kwan over Tara (I thought the media hype on MK leading into the game kind of stimulating the 'rebut' mindset in judges)? Why they can't again at 2002 by place Kwan over Irina (I thought with pairs scandal in hand and Rusian threaten withdrawn, they were too afraid of another 'scandal')? (see, at least I have the consistancy to prefer refined/polished artistry over technique profeciecy).

I don't care fair or not fair judging. There have been and will be a lot more skaters who won/win OGM from the 'unfair judging' (take whatever you like in the eyes of fans or experts), why can't this skater be MK?

I hope this time around if it is an either way call, the favor goes to MK. She deserves it.

June 29th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Yes, its hard to EVER call something completely objective when one is required to judge choreography. Some things are very objective, some are fairly to very subjective, but none are totally subjective (at least in the rules) but the judges sometimes seem to use them that way. :rolleyes

And I know it's crazy to think coming from Mr. Kwan Lover here but if Michelle would have placed second in the long at SLC I would have been saying the same things I did when Irina won at the GPF that season. ROBBERY! Though I can, and I do, see what other people are talking about when they say it is possible that Michelle could have placed second in the long. Unfortunately, it's dependant upon those darn judges!

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Let's just call is a close-call again and Michelle always seems to get the short side of the stick!

June 30th, 2005, 12:14 PM
Which is more ROBBERY?
Ocsana Biaul's LP over Nancy's at 1994 Olympics?
or Michelle's LP over Irina's at 2002 Olympics?

I don't care what you said as long as Michelle got that Gold. lol. There always is robbery in figure skating. Even it does not exist, the fans and media can always create some. As long as it is not a bluntely robbery (in this case place Michelle ahead of Irina in LP), I can live with it. (of cource again I can live with Irina ahead of MK too).

June 30th, 2005, 02:42 PM
I don't believe in robbery. I think whoever wins was ment to win. It's just too easy to blame Cop or judges if things don't go our way. In the mean time I will keep good thoughts for Michelle for this very special Olympic season.

July 1st, 2005, 07:20 AM
from both the Olys in '98 and '02.

Michelle did not win the Gold but earned a Silver and a Bronze.

I hope she just earns a medal in Turino as winning a Gold will be rather difficult.

Then, she could be announced as a three-time Oly medalist.

To me, that is more impressive, than a one-time only Oly Gold.

Michelle, as many of us, would love to be hailed as an Oly Champion. But, somtimes that is just not in the cards.

Let's hope she enjoys herself, makes the U.S. Oly team, and skates with the passion that her mentor Brian Boitano skated.

July 1st, 2005, 09:01 AM
if one judge had given her even 2 or 3 points higher on a GOE, she would have accomplished her dream would be to much for me.

Considering that the GOEs range from -3 to +3 (with values less than that for most elements that aren't triple jumps), it's highly unlikely that a judge who gave a -1 or 0 GOE for one element would have decided, no, on second thought I'd give her +1 or +2 for that same element. Either the judge thought it was done especially well, or that it was flawed or successful. If they're wavering about what GOE to give, it's only by one point per element.

And even if they did, remember that that one judge's GOE gets averaged with all the other judges' before it's added to the score. So even a difference 3 GOE points on a difficult element that would actually be worth 3.00 in absolute points would only make a difference of 3.00/7 (less than 0.5, someone else can do the actual math) when averaged over seven judges.

Of course, you could think of it as "If only one judge had given her one more GOE point on several of her elements, AND 0.25 or 0.50 more on most or all of her components, she would have accomplished her dream," that would be more realistic and could, after averaging, make up a deficit of 0.5 behind whoever was ahead of her.

But that's not just one decision by one judge. It would require a large proportion of the decisions by one judge (i.e., a different judge who just appreciates MK and her skating better than one of the actual judges). Or the same decision by several of the judges.

One decision by the caller could make more of difference because it's not averaged.

Just clarifying how the math would work out...

July 1st, 2005, 01:06 PM
Henrie this is just a stab in the dark, but I think I might know you...

How many Henrie's can there possibly be in this country?

PM me...Do you live in NY?

July 1st, 2005, 04:17 PM
JamesG said:

"Then, she could be announced as a three-time Oly medalist.

To me, that is more impressive, than a one-time only Oly Gold."

I agree.

July 2nd, 2005, 12:13 AM
I'd like to echo Emerald--ITA, JamesG!

Even just becoming a three-time Olympian in this incredibly demanding sports itself is amazing...

kwancierto de aranjuez
July 2nd, 2005, 01:27 AM
Secretly, deep down in my heart, in all our hearts, we want her to win. I want her to win because she wants to win and accomplish her dream.

I would be happy if Michelle skated her best but did not win but I would be ecstatic for her if she won. Even if it was a contested win... I think I'll be there defending her.

I hope Michelle gets what she deserves in Turino, no more and no less. God only knows how She will bless Michelle Kwan.

Gosh, a lot of them have worked so hard through the years that I wish they could all get gold medals.

July 2nd, 2005, 06:07 AM
I'd rather she skate amazingly. I think the worst thing for michelle would be not if she didn't win, but if she didn't skate her best. Because then there would always be that "what if" in her mind. And the happier Michelle is the happier I will be.