PDA

View Full Version : concerned!!!!!!!!!



baino
November 7th, 1999, 03:09 PM
Am I the only one that is concerned with Michelle's skating at Skate Canada?? I adore Michelle as much as the next person, but is sounds as if her skating was WAY off!!!!

Karin
November 7th, 1999, 03:14 PM
everyone's skating was way off!!!...in all discpline!!!... It was the ice!!!...frosty...holes...ruts!!! Awful!!!

Sprampt
November 7th, 1999, 03:28 PM
Coudn't they fix the ice?

Karin
November 7th, 1999, 03:46 PM
the first night of skating...CTV commented on the condition!!!...then Yags asked the referee in practice about flooding it!!!...but no flooding!!!...I mean...only the ice dancers were not affected...but they were also the ones making the most holes!!! and scratches!!! Kinda mad at the ice condition!!!

Janice
November 7th, 1999, 03:49 PM
Michelle had a bad competition. It happens. I wouldn't be too worried. In fact, I think it probably was good for her. It'll get her fighting spirit going.

Karin
November 7th, 1999, 03:55 PM
MK always comes back after a disappointment!!!...this time...it was her own performance that was some what disappointing (I mean...she hasn't pulled a double jump night since 97 Skate Canada!!!)...but anywayzzz... MK will perform it with perfection at Nationals...you know she'll be tough!!!

Icare
November 7th, 1999, 04:28 PM
Correct me if I am wrong. I thought ice condition of a rink should be a selection criteria to decide which rink is chosen. You would not ask top notched painists to compete in international competition while playing an old beat up paino! Is there something wrong here? Did the Committee do the due diligence?

littleone4eva
November 7th, 1999, 04:34 PM
I don't think we should worry about MK, just yet. It's WAY to early to tell what's going to happen to her. Some reasons why she had a below average performance at SC, even though she doesn't want to admit it (but knows deeep inside) was because of her VERY hectic schedule these past weeks (competitions, mid terms), and the possible ice-conditions at the rink. I might get slightly worried if she doesn't skate very well in Dec, because she would have had time to adjust to school (to mid terms.. hhhmmm, maybe finals??) and have a little break from competition... we'll see. It's too early to tell, though.

annabelle
November 7th, 1999, 05:39 PM
i think we're all a little bit concerned, but i really think school has taken a toll on her skating. but she's a tough girl and i don't think she'll let the problem get out of hand to the point where she's like maria b. and always flat on the ice. i have to 2 questions... so far this season, what competitions has she not skated cleanly? how old is jennifer robinson?

Karin
November 7th, 1999, 06:24 PM
MK was not clean at SA...and SC... NO more please!!!...but school is good!!! I haven't seen MK ever smile like she does now ever before!!! Jen is 22!!!

skatingfan
November 7th, 1999, 06:36 PM
First of all I think CHAMPIONS FIND WAYS TO WIN. Michelle won, she received 12 points and she will be at GP finals. But w/o watching the programs on tv or reading too may reviews we don't know yet what really happened. I was quite busy today and was not able to go online until a couple of hrs ago. I had a chance to watch some sports mainly golf on tv today. Tiger Woods won in Valdarama Spain, not a pretty win, but he won. He only had a B game for the first 3 days, and was one behind the lead at the beginning of today, did well, and was leading until disaster on hole `17. He was able to at least force a playoff and won in the playoff. I was exceedingly glad, and was not a bit concerned, even if he did not win, I don't think I would be concerned. Then when I turned on the computer found out Michelle fell on 3l, doubled 3 other jumps, I felt so bad, I almost forgot that she won. Then I had a chance to think about it and put it in perspective. She won, that is all that matters for now. I am concerned for her trying so hard to fit school and skating in, she had to go first in the exhibition b/c she had a plane to catch, and starting tomorrow she will have mid term exams. I hope she takes a good rest, then regroup. Her next comp will be a pro am in December. After that I hope she will lighten her course load to one or at most 2 courses.

sw10025a
November 7th, 1999, 08:08 PM
You have a good point about the ice conditions, however, short of flooding or relaying the ice, there's no way to guarantee the ice conditions. The ice may have been in great condition last week, and with all the use this week, particularly with ice dancers, it all went down the drain. I am surprised that this happened in Canada, however. I've seen it happen in some of the less sophisticated venues (i.e. the worlds that was held in the Czech Republic, if I recall correctly), but I'm really surprised to see it happen in a country of such rabid figure skating fandom and with modern facilities and equipment. I'm really surprised the CFSA let this happen, particularly with their prize athlete Elvis Stojko competing. It really sounds like someone could have been injured because of the poor ice conditions. Do you suppose that was a contributing factor when Stojko twisted his ankle in practice? As for Michelle, I wouldn't worry *too* much. I think people are reading more into this than they should and not putting it into the proper context. It sounds like Stojko and Yagudin fell as much if not more than Michelle and made a lot of errors too; Bereznaia and Sikharalidze made three or four in their short program alone; almost all the ladies had subpar SP performances, not to mention LPs, and in fact the whole competition sounds like it was a dud. And with one or two possible exceptions, none of those folks have midterms to take. Remember, MK is only six, maybe seven weeks into her first quarter. An average college freshman is still trying to get adjusted to dorm life and find the various department libraries at this point. Its a lot of adjustment for an everyday 19 year old, much less a world class skater. But now Michelle has, until January before her next major competition? That's a good amount of time to readjust her schedule, spend more time working with Frank and Lori, and get herself mentally back on track. Plus, I think UCLA students get three weeks winter break last couple of weeks in December and first week of January, so I'm sure she'll spend her vacation resting and working on her consistency. Heck, in December of 97, she couldn't even land a double axel and she was restricted to doing a single triple toe a day, and just a couple of weeks later, she gave two of the most brilliant performances of her life. Be calm.

Karin
November 7th, 1999, 08:22 PM
Your last lines (may be paragraph) brought tears to my eyes!!! Well said!!! And BW...MK's next competition is a pro-am in Dec...so have fun girl!!!...no worries!!!...get some rest MK!!!...we luv ya!!!

Icare
November 7th, 1999, 08:35 PM
but she needs to sort priorities out. Things I can think of: hiring a chauffeur so she has rest in between places, lighten course load (1 course less may be enough), not demanding herself too much by wanting to have everything at the same time, like if dorm life is too hard to have enough quiet time,living outside with friends may be an alternative. I mean, she already has everything, but she may want to put less energy in lower priority stuff in order to ensure the quality of the results. She needs to get a balance between social life, skating, and academics. Only she knows what is more important to her. I just can't stop being amazed how she followed her heart, and did so well. And I wish her continuous success. By the way, I don't mean success by being perfect everytime and everywhere. So, Michelle, have faith in yourself! Skatingfan's example on Tiger should lift some worries off from MK and fans.

0711
November 8th, 1999, 09:13 AM
I think it's a little premature to be worrying so much about Michelle because she had a bad skate. I read that Michelle doubled BOTH her toe jumps in her combo (that's 2 of the 3 doubles you read about) and got a little razzled. She then fell on the loop and doubled the 2 lutz, but did land the lutz/toe combo, flip, salchow, and the last toe that she put in...all triples. This may be a subpar performance for Michelle but I think we should cut the girl some slack here, she's had alot to adjust to in the last couple of months. Anyway, I think we have such high standards for her that we start worrying when she has this kind of performance, but think of all the other skaters who routinely perform like this. Just my 2 cents.

KeithB
November 8th, 1999, 11:27 AM
..prematurely, but to praise her for her bold experiment. This had to be an incredibly strenuous series of competitions, especially the past ten days, while getting started with a totally new way of life off the ice. My guess is that she simply was exhausted going into the LP. The remaining commitments are much more spread out, and she will have the benefit of a 3-week quarter break before the GP final. Let's see now: A fall and three doubles out of planned triples, but a make-up 3toe toward the end, and all of the spins, spirals and footwork that she does so well. The tech marks tell me the judges were giving her ample credit for the latter elements. Keith

KeithB
November 8th, 1999, 11:30 AM
... is what my subject line should have been on my first post. It somehow got lost in recovering from a glitch. Keith

skatingfan
November 8th, 1999, 07:31 PM
and none of those were 3a, so put things in perspective a bit too. the only triple Michelle did not land was the 3l, otherwise she completed one of each.

ChicaRealidad
November 8th, 1999, 07:59 PM
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh. Just a week ago everyone here was euphoric about how well MK skated at Skate America. At that time I said it was too soon to tell how she'd handle everything. Barely a week has passed and already some people here are afraid she's falling apart. Le'ts all take a deep breath here and chill. As I remember from past seasons, MK always has one or two off performances (Remember that pesky event called the 1998 Winter Olympics? Or how about the 1999 World Championships?). These off nights aren't catastrophes, they're just let-downs. It's not like when other skaters skate poorly and fall 3 or 4 times in a performance. She fell once in the LP and doubled 3 jumps. That's not that bad. It only sounds bad because of who she is. If it was anyone else I don't think it would be a big deal. In fact it'd probably be a good night for them. Clearly she's got some adjustments to make in her schedule. She's got almost 6 weeks off before her next competition. I doubt that she'll let herself not be ready for that competition. She's just too much of a perfectionist for that. And since Frank Carroll will be available during the week for her practice sessions, maybe he'll be a calming influence during those sessions when she says she's been rushing because she's only got 45 minutes. So everyone take a deep breath and get some perspective on this. It's only ONE COMPETITION.

Jubal316
November 9th, 1999, 06:05 AM
was Michelle's 1998 Olympic performance an "off performance." She skated perfectly and beautifully that night. She was so amazed that she was in tears. We all thought that she had won the gold medal until Tara's scores came up. That wasn't a off-night for her, but like she and Todd always say, "You have to skate your best and leave the scores up to the judges."

sw10025
November 9th, 1999, 11:15 AM
I think Chicarealidad meant that Olympics 98 was a "less than perfect" performance more than a "bad" performance. I agree that many of us (and especially the judges) have unrealistically high performance expectations for Michelle and on the couple of occassions when she hasn't met them, we're all aghast, even though many skaters would have killed for that very same performance.

Shallah
November 9th, 1999, 11:45 AM
though I do worry she has to much on her plate with two major comps in two weeks. Considering the facts she did well. I was hoping she would be at her best cuz I was finally going to see her LIVE but it didn't happen then. Her short was beautiful with a tiny bobble on the landing of one jump. I think she was simply tired. Give her a less hectic schedule and she will be back to her normal level I think. Compare Michelle's skating to say Maria B. at her GP events last season where she would fall and do like 4 triples and win with that - I remember the screaming & yelling across the net cuz the overall level of skating was that low that 4 triples was winning the events. I think if someone bothered to calculate Michelle's # of jumps landed in various competitions over the past few years and compared them to other top ranking skaters that she would have one of if not THE best ranks. Add in her good spins with great centering - and the improving speed of them, the footwork that just keeps getting better (two skating judges on Skate Fans list were very impressed with her footwork in her programs), and wonderfully executed choreography she has what it takes to keep winning events. It is almost funny that some people go ballistic and start predicting the End of Her CAREER!!!! when Michelle falls once while when another skater does it is no biggie....... That really says something about Michelle's general high quality of skating to me!

Googoo
November 9th, 1999, 02:48 PM
Yeah FSW is like this right now-- OH NO SHE IS WASHED UP! PLLLLEEEEEEASSSSE! So she had one less than brilliant performance! Big deal! It happens every now and then! It's only natural! I am so proud of Mk for going to Skate Canada right after Skate America AND going to school! Go Michelle!

ChicaRealidad
November 9th, 1999, 03:43 PM
Thanks, sw10025, that's exactly what I meant. I think Frank Carroll said it best about her Olympic performance, she was letter perfect technically, but emotionally it wasn't coming across to the audience. At least not the way it did at the US Championships a month earlier. And not to get into the old debate of whether or not she deserved to win....but in my book she did. I am not, never have been and never will be a TL fan, but on the whole I just found her (TL's) program lacking technically in-between the jumping. And although that performance won her the gold medal, the exact same performance by Michelle cost Michelle the gold because the judges know that she can be such an emotionally charged skater. Am I making sense or am I just dredging up a subject that's already been discussed to death?

sw10025
November 9th, 1999, 04:35 PM
I agree Chicarealidad, I think that because of who she is and what she has done, Michelle is judged by a different (and greater) standard than other skaters are. This can be a blessing, in a sense, but also a burden. A lot of people on a lot of boards have been moaning concern or announcing the death of her career on the basis of this one off program, and yet Alexei Yagudin made as many if not more mistakes (with no college exams) and I haven't seen anyone bleating about how he's in deep trouble or his career is finished. Get real! Michelle is still *the* standard bearer, despite whatever Maria Butyrskaya thinks.

taboo999
November 9th, 1999, 05:17 PM
I haven't read any of the Chewy's Kingdom threads, but if my suspicions are correct, they probably don't think MK's career is over, they just WANT it to be over so bad that maybe they think if they say it enough times it will come true.

Googoo
November 10th, 1999, 04:31 AM
"And although that performance won her the gold medal, the exact same performance by Michelle cost Michelle the gold because the judges know that she can be such an emotionally charged skater." Chicarealidad, what are you talking about? Mk got all 5.9's for presentation at the Oly! The problem was with the technical scores, which were kept down, because she was the first skater. The technical scores have nothing to do with bring emotion to the audience.

ChicaRealidad
November 11th, 1999, 06:57 PM
GooGoo, I disagree with you about the technical scores (4 5.8s & 5 5.7s) being the reason Michelle lost the gold medal. IMO the reason she lost the gold is because she did get all 5.9s on the presentation mark. TL got similar mark's on presentation as Michelle (5 5.8s & 4 5.9s) and her technical marks were slightly higher (6 5.9s & 3 5.8s). A month earlier Michelle got 8 6.0s and 1 5.9 for presentation. That little spark that she was missing at the Olympics cost her .1 on 8 of the 9 judges scorecards. That's why I said the presentation mark cost her the medal. TL skated the best program of her life....and Michelle didn't. Okay...we're beating a dead horse, so I'm going to shut up now. (Unless, of course, you want to discuss how the judges didn't give Michelle credit for the technical elements she performed other than the jumps?)

Marco
November 11th, 1999, 10:13 PM
Hmm, ChicaRealidad, I have to disagree on that one, coz I think Michelle, being the first skater in the final group, couldnt possibly get any 6.0s at all even if she repeated her nationals performance...so the row of 5.9s is already the highest she can possibly get for presentation at that point

Googoo
November 12th, 1999, 05:26 AM
There is no way in HECK that MK would have gotten a board full of 6.0's being the first to skate, even if she blew kisses at the judges and skipped around like she was in a field of daisies. They would never do that! Then the competition would be "over" before it started. And anyway you said yourself that MK's presentation marks were higher than TL's! (She didn't get all 5.9's like MK did) ANd what is a SPARK? That is so arbitrary! Can you define what it is?

lavender
November 12th, 1999, 08:25 AM
Michelle may not have had the same performance at the olympics like she had at nationals but her presentation marks still beat tara BUT what cost michelle to me is that little wobble on that triple jump. People may believe that judges do not look at that but they do. Even we look at it as a less than perfect jump.

Sharon
November 12th, 1999, 08:55 AM
As those before me pointed out, Michelle beat Tara on presentation and could not have received 6.0's even if she skated like she did at Nats. They only thing the JUDGES could do in that circumstance, would have been to mark Tara lower. To me, what cost Michelle the gold medal is that the JUDGES gave Tara the slightly higher technical marks, based mainly on her jumps and didn't give Michelle as much credit as they should have for the more difficult in-between moves (spins, spirals, footwork, arm movements...the details!). They let Tara's youthful enthusiasm sway the moment, like they did Oksana in 1994. Michelle's program had more overall technical difficulty and was a complete package IMHO. Anyway, to get back to the topic :-)!, As a Michelle fan, I can't help but be concerned when she doesn't skate as well as she usually does, but on the other hand, she's only human and she's made major changes to her life this year and it's going to take her a little while to figure her schedule and stuff out. She deserves it, and to be happy! We would all like her to win everything from now through 2002 Olympics and beyond, but even if she does, is it really fair of us to expect a perfect or near perfect performance every time? I think that those performances have a lot to do with how she is mentally, and going to school, meeting new people, having new experiences is helping her. She just needs some time to adjust. I for one, would rather have her be happy, above all, even if it means she makes a few mistakes now and then. Sorry if I'm repeating others, but I can't be expected to remember everyting I read now can I? LOL, even if it was only a minute ago!

sw10025
November 12th, 1999, 10:45 AM
As bizarre as it may sound, I think its actually a good thing when Michelle actually has a subpar performance once in a while. It reminds her that she still has to focus and pay attention to her entry speed, pick placement, etc. But its also good in a perverse sort of way because it helps take a little of the pressure off. If Michelle had had that performance at an important international comp a couple of years ago, she would probably have been in tears and wouldn't have handled it so well. Back during the 95-96 season and into the start of the 96-97 season, Michelle was skating so well in the important comps, had minor little problems like a lazy free leg or a scratchy landing, but no significant errors like falls, that she sort of fell into the trap of believing that she had to be "perfect" and went into the 97 nationals LP thinking it and when she wasn't, completely fell apart emotionally. Now, well, its a disappointment, but its not the end of the world. I remember years ago when Boitano hadn't lost a competition or messed up a jump in years, his record of "perfect" programs and unbroken wins really became an albatross around his neck, as reporters continually harped on about it and his own drive for perfection demanded that he keep trying to keep the record going. He was actually *relieved* when the run was broken.

Karin
November 12th, 1999, 11:37 AM
LOL...it's the 2.5/2.5 loop!!!...still bitter!!!

ChicaRealidad
November 12th, 1999, 06:00 PM
Well, I beg to differ on the subject, but let me pose another question -- which should probably go under the "Skating Chat", but I'm too lazy to move the thread over there.... I've always been annoyed at this idea that the judges can't give the first skater 6.0s. Why not? Isn't each skater supposed to be judged on their own merit? Isn't it about their technical and artistic accomplishments? Or is it about how they skate in relation to the other skaters? And if that's the case, then why can't Michelle get 6.0s skating first? The judges know that no one else is her artistic equal, so what's the problem? And why can't, as an example, TL get 6.0s for jumping (notice I didn't say "skating techniques" which the judges seem to confuse with "jumping techniques") when it's doubtful anyone else is going to do any many triples or as difficult combinations? I've thought for years -- even before MK came along -- that the judging in this sport needed a complete overhaul and now I'm more positive than ever. When skaters started getting perfect scores or near perfect scores even when they fall -- MK included, but that was really aimed at Maria Butryskaya going splat all over the ice at SA -- then what's left but to give perfect scores on the technical side for falling on two triples, but nailing three quads (yeah, that's a dig at Tim Goebel's SA scores, too!). IMO judging has just complete lost it's focus.

sw10025a
November 12th, 1999, 06:31 PM
Chicarealidad, I think the reason that judges don't and won't give the first skater a 6.0 is because of the way the system is set up. Judges are not supposed to go into a competition with predetermined marks or placements. True, they are encouraged to attend the skaters' practices to acquaint themselves with the skaters' general ability level and the programs, but they are not allowed to bring notes of any type to the actual competition. This is patently ridiculous, because we all know that the judges know darn well that Fumie Suguri, for example, is probably never going to beat Michelle. She simply doesn't have the basic technical skills to place high enough. And yet the judges must maintain this fiction that they don't already have a good idea who the top three are likely to be, barring a major disaster or two. The other reason any judge is unlikely to give the first skater a 6.0 is because of their system of accountability. Did you know that each judge has to submit a written report explaining each and every mark he or she awarded to each skater for each program after the competition, regardless of whether there was a judging controversy or not? (Well, at least for the regular comps, I don't know about the pro-ams and fluff comps.) Although these documents are not made public, they are scrutinized by the ISU. If you have to explain, document and rationalize every mark you give out, you're not going to go out on a limb and expose yourself to ISU criticism, are you? And judges who give out marks substantially different from their fellow judges open themselves not only to criticism, but to possible suspension from judging. That's right, you can lose your judging credentials simply because you don't mark the same as the rest of the judges. There are powerful incentives for conforming and marking conservatively at work here.

Googoo
November 12th, 1999, 07:07 PM
I agree Chicarealidad, that they should just judge a skater's performance and not worry about what else will happen! All well! I just hope that in 2002 MK doesn't skate first in her group again!

SNY
November 14th, 1999, 12:04 AM
sw: Doesn't the rationale for not giving the 1st skater a 6.0 apply to the 2nd and possibly the 3rd skater as well? I mean what if the judge gives a 6.0 to the 2nd skater and the 4th skater gives a better performance?

taf2
November 14th, 1999, 04:53 AM
Chicarealidad-you need to learn more about judging before you criticise. Although I am not a fan of the ordinal system, I do understand why Michelle could not receive any 6.0's as the 1st skater. With scores of 5.8 + 5.9, here are the marks they could give someone after her for a better skate: 5.9 + 5.9, 5.8 + 6.0, 5.9 + 6.0, 6.0 + 5.8 & 6.0 + 5.9, in other words, 5 scores for the following 5 skaters, who theorectically could have done better than Michelle. (This is why the 5.7's made me so mad-they were completely unnecessary for ranking purposes.) The #4 skater was Lulu-the reigning Bronze medalist from 94-they had to leave room for her-if she and Tara had both beat Michelle, Lulu could have won the gold. For the judges to block her out with too high scores for the first skater would have been even more of a judging controversy than the ice dance fiasco. I was happy with Michelle's 5.8/5.9 scores-if Tara hadn't been given such inflated marks, they would have been good enough to win.

sw10025a
November 14th, 1999, 09:08 AM
I'm not necessarily defending the system, I'm just saying that I understand why its working the way it is, given all of the underlying factors. And you're right, to a certain extent, the same underlying logic that would prevent a judge from giving the first skater in a group a 6.0 would also prevent them from giving it to the second skater, and so on, depending on how many of the real contenders had already skated. Judges tend to save high marks -- why else would skaters rather skate close to the end of their group when say, they hadn't had their warm up skate in 40 minutes and had lost the feel of the ice, so to speak? Personally, I think they should completely overhall the judging system and just award straight ordinals, possibly after the entire group has skated (although after the fact scoring might lead to some manipulation, so I'm a little hesitant about that). Take the SG SP, for example, Malinina skates first, so she gets an automatic first, Slutskaya skates second, and say she wasn't as good, the judge gives her a 2, the next two girls skate and get 3 and 4, then Maria has the best performance of a bad bunch, and gets a 1, bumping the other girls down a notch. Maybe they could just fix the judges up with a computer and let them point and click to determine their placements of the skaters. Just a thought.