View Full Version : SC MK's short program

November 3rd, 2000, 11:34 AM
Live commentary from iskater.com by Paul Martini:

16:30 EST KWAN: RE marks were up and came down and now both sets are up, very solid indeed!!!!!
16:29 EST KWAN: Compared to last week, this was a stronger looking performance and the smile on her face as she sits with Frank is a pretty good indication of how she feels about her effort this afternoon
16:28 EST KWAN: No doubt she will be a little disappointed in not hitting a triple triple, but aside from that, this was a very good skate.
16:27 EST KWAN: Once again, Michelle has put down a quality performance that should set a very high standard to start this event
16:26 EST KWAN: Spiral Seq in to the final combination spin,
16:26 EST KWAN: flying back sit is well done and having her just skate past me, the quality of edge on this woman is wonderful, very quite.
16:25 EST KWAN: foot work into 3 flip, well done
16:25 EST KWAN: music change
16:25 EST KWAN: Layback is good, but could use more speed
16:25 EST KWAN: speed gathered for a nice 3 lutz-2toe
16:24 EST KWAN: nice opening 2 axel
16:24 EST KWAN: Michelle to start position

November 3rd, 2000, 11:36 AM
Michelle hit every thing except there was something he said that puzzled me. The person that is commentating stated that she will be disappointed in not hitting the 3/3 but it was a good skate. What is this guy talking about? She doesn't do 3/3 in the short and most women don't.

November 3rd, 2000, 11:41 AM

Hits everything. According to Paul, Irina's spins (including layback spins) are faster than MK.

16:36 EST SLUTSKAYA: Better PRe marks as well
16:36 EST SLUTSKAYA: Better tech marks for Irina than Michelle
16:36 EST SLUTSKAYA: Michelle of course, the current world champion, Irina the current silver medalist. The crowd is still buzzing
16:35 EST SLUTSKAYA: four or five stuffed animals hit the ice for her and this should give the judges the best chance they might get all year to evaluate these two back to back
16:34 EST SLUTSKAYA: She is smiling huge and the crowd is giving her a huge ovation

November 3rd, 2000, 11:42 AM
MK's marks:
Technical Merit 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.8 5.8
Artistic Impression 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8

November 3rd, 2000, 11:44 AM
So will Irina be ahead of MK going into the free skate? I guess that's not so bad, as long as MK doesn't have to go first!!!

So far, Manianchenko has landed her elements as well. I wonder what kind of marks she'll receive.

November 3rd, 2000, 11:45 AM
16:42 EST MANIACHENKO: Yoshie is on the ice skating around
16:41 EST MANIACHENKO: I am impressed with the light airy feel of this program. Galina looked very relaxed throughout it
16:40 EST MANIACHENKO: Crowd in giving her a very nice hand as well. Unlike the men of last night, we have now seen 3 very good performances in a row!!!!!
16:40 EST MANIACHENKO: Combination spin has good speed to finish the program
16:39 EST MANIACHENKO: Layback spin off to the one end,but well done
16:39 EST MANIACHENKO: quality 2 axel
16:38 EST MANIACHENKO: She has a very light, quick rotating way of jumping
16:38 EST MANIACHENKO: Very good 3 Flip
16:38 EST MANIACHENKO: Nice light, 3 lutz, 2 toe
16:38 EST MANIACHENKO: Picking up speed for the lutz combo
16:37 EST MANIACHENKO: Galina is moving to her start position

November 3rd, 2000, 11:48 AM
Well I guess it is official they even like Irina's short better than Michelle's. I quess we were wrong about Irina's short not being better. I know they are going to like Irina's long better. Oh Well.

See you guys around.

November 3rd, 2000, 11:50 AM
MK should be very pleased!! She barely had a week off and apparently a well executed short. So Irina's head,it gives MK the incentive she needs.:-) Is a triple Lutz double loop that much harder than triple lutz double toe? Could the spins be off because MK's tired? I am proud of her and hope she skates better in the long no matter what the outcome.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:01 PM
LAVENDER, get a hold of yourself. Don't overeact!

November 3rd, 2000, 12:05 PM
I thought Paul knows his stuff? What would he say Michelle has to be disappointed in not hitting the triple/triple. What triple/triple?

November 3rd, 2000, 12:05 PM
michelle' is great at coming from behind have faith....and chicken

November 3rd, 2000, 12:07 PM
I understand that she beat Michelle because she was technically aheah. If her overall skating was there them mozel tov to her. However, I understand she is skating to the music of Schindler's List and I just saw her costume. I am insulted that she would skate to music from a movie that important and look like a prostitute!!!! As a Jew I am insulted. Usually stuff like this does not bother me. Irinia has much nicer costumes then this. I think something more subdued would have sold this program much better. As of now I don't care who wins or loses. The judges should have deducted for that horror of a costume. Ok rant over.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:12 PM
Wasn't Schindler's List her interpretive program?

November 3rd, 2000, 12:14 PM
Four judges scored her a 5.6???? The program must be really terrible. She must have been playing cautious. Someone post Irina's scores so we can compare.

I don't think MK is going to win this event. Judging from SA, the Black Swann just doesnt look ready yet as a finished program.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:14 PM
Irina is not skating to Schindler's List for her SP but her interpretive program. Her SP is to the music of "Elektra" I think.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:16 PM
One more thing. MK has been getting alot of 5.6s lately. I wonder what's up? Even at the Worlds she got a 5.6. She's gotta figure out why she's getting that score and do something about it.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:25 PM
so far

1. Slutskaya
2. Kwan
3. Suguri
4. Maniachenko
5. Robinson
6. Stellato
7. Onda

And for slitherdumpling: Maniachenko is the one skating to Schlinder's list for her short program.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:27 PM
I think she is getting those marks because she doesnt always hold her spins long enough ie she may hold a layback for 6 revs and 10 is a good number. And at SA in her long she held her back sit for 2 revs but everything else she does is so wonderful so she just needs to hold her spins longer.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:30 PM
And where is Evelyn Kramer..the Spin Doctor?

November 3rd, 2000, 12:31 PM
You can go here to see everyone's marks

www.cfsa.ca/english/resul...SEG003.HTM (http://www.cfsa.ca/english/results/2000/0skcanada/SEG003.HTM)

November 3rd, 2000, 12:39 PM
I hope the rest of you don't tar and feather me for saying this....... but in a wierd way I am happy that Michelle is second going into the long program. Maybe this will be the kind of incentive that she needs to improve. I have thought for a long time that if Michelle upgrades her LP to include two triple/ triples, the only thing holding her back is her speed and her slow spins. Also, with the skating order, it is almost unheard of that the person to skate first in the draw wins the short. The judges were probably either holding the marks back, or trying to send Michelle a message. Personally I think it's the latter. I think they want to see more speed and power from Michelle, pure and simple.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:42 PM
Irina won the SP decisively!

But it sounds like they both gave great performances which is the most important thing.

Wonder what the difference would have been if Michelle hadn't skated first??

Can hardly wait to see this comp!

November 3rd, 2000, 12:45 PM
Even if Irina skated first, I don't think it would make any difference. 3z-2l is a lot harder than 3z-2t. Moreover, Irina has faster spins. This is technical program. Irina has 2 major required elements that are obviously better than MK.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:46 PM
I partially agree...that MK being beaten will give her even more "motivation" to push herself technically.

I don't think the judges were necessarily sending a message, though. The first skater always has their marks held back a bit.

But as I've been saying all along, the pressure she's going to get from skaters like Irina and Sarah should move her toward some outstanding performances/technical changes in the near future I would think! And that's perfect for her going into next year's Olympics.

Also, it would be great for her not to have the weight of being the overwhelming favorite this time around...as papers were already starting to headline during SA!

I say "it's all good!"

November 3rd, 2000, 12:49 PM
I agree Luenatic, but I also think her overall scores would have been a bit higher than they were.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:50 PM
Actually I don't think it's the speed and power they are looking for. She's greatly improved in that category. I bet it is because they want her to upgrade her triple/triple. THat and everytime she goes to school full time, it takes much out of her and we can usually see that in her skate. I guess we won't really know what's up until two weeks. I really don't think she needs two triple/triples. Just one good combo is probably enough. But about all this triple triple talk. I really hope figure skating isnt progressing into something where people start doing three or four triple/triple combos in place of a good program.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:50 PM
5.5 from the Hungarian Judge (I thought GMAN bit that judge out of existence.) 5.6??? from U.S too for a clean skate??? You'd think with the 3 flip she's get higher marks, but NOOOO. ARE her spins that bad and if she is missing some revolutions like someone said in Skate America, why in tarnation didn't Frank and Michelle do something to fix it between the end of SA and beginning of SC. Weird wild stuff.

It seems the way they are scoring Michelle, she's regressing in the presentation department too in the judges eyes. Anywho, congrats to Michelle and Irina. I don't mind the second place either, anything to stoke the fire in Michelle. It will be interesting to see how she responds to this. Here's to hoping she has a good draw in the FS and attack her free skate.

November 3rd, 2000, 12:51 PM
I too, upon reflection, am relieved that she's in second place after the SP. When she's behind, she always comes back strong. 8)

REMEMBER 2000 WORLDS!!! (She was 3rd after the SP) ;)

Go Michelle! :rollin
...and congrats to Irina ;)

November 3rd, 2000, 12:55 PM
savvysearch, I doubt they would deduct in the SP for elements MK does in the LP! (re: triple/triple) :rolleyes

November 3rd, 2000, 12:57 PM
I know. I was talking about overall scores.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:04 PM
i'm dissapointed to say the least....</bold>NOT</bold> with Michelle of course, cause she skated as well as she can (it sounds)...but i am dissapointed with the judging, 5.6 is unjustified!

November 3rd, 2000, 01:08 PM
No overreaction here. I'm just being realistic. The majority likes Irina's DQ more than BS. It's ok she is in second. I just thought her short was a better prg but maybe not her long against Irina. I still think her short is better and more original but my taste doesn't count. I think if they both skate great and added their 3/3's Irina would get the nod because she has the harder elements. Michelle just doesn't have those hard 3 combos.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:11 PM
I think Irina's 3lutz-2loop v.s. Michelle's 3lutz-2toe gave Irina 0.1 more in the required elements. Irina's faster spins and speed in general gave her 0.1 more in the presentation mark.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:17 PM
I don't know what to think. FOUR 5.6's and one 5.5 with a triple flip and more speed (except the spins). Only 5.8's for presentation. They say she seemed happy with her skate. What's up? I'm glad she's in second at least.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:18 PM
I read another report that said MK got a 5.5 in technical!!!! I really have to see this short program. I haven't seen it yet. Curse you all for those who've seen it already!!!!

November 3rd, 2000, 01:24 PM
I know exactly what you're saying Lavender. Don Quixote is considered great by a lot of people. It's just common sense. Besides that, look at the scores, it's clear whose skating was preferred. How often in the past has Michelle had scores that low on a clean skate. No 5.9's for presentation, as low as 5.5 on required elements. It wasn't even that close. I don't know what Michelle needs to do, but right now it doesn't look good. That doesn't change how I feel about Michelle or her skating, but I do think the judges are making a statement because the scores always make some statement. Sorry for rambling, but I'm feeling really down right now, I was hoping to come home and find news to cheer me up.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:34 PM
I've sort of been mentally preparing myself for times like these, when others would arise to really give MK a run for her money. I'm not particularly upset either. MK did deliver a nice, clean short with a 3 flip. I'm not really that concerned with MK being in second because, hey, the competition is not yet over. So as long as MK can still control her own destiny, I won't get freaked out if I don't find her in first after the short, throughout this skating season.

And is anyone really annoyed by the marks? I mean, if anything, MK's presentation has improved since the Olympics and she's upgraded her solo 3 jump to boot yet some of her technical scores seemed unjustified, even if she did skate first. And I don't mean to be whiny or sound mean cause I'm not trying to be, but Irina's presentation didn't improve THAT much. It might just be a cultural clash, but her choreography as of late has been yucky. I know this has nothing to do with the presentation mark and that what I am saying is relative, but I just don't get how something that looks better isn't given better presentation marks to something that doesn't look as good. (Note: this may be more of my own self reassurance. I can't help it though, it's like my own personal defense mechanism.)

Oh yeah, also does anyone else feel less emphasis on their desire to see MK win whatever competition she enters and more emphasis on just seeing her improve her own skating and just performing her personal best?

November 3rd, 2000, 01:39 PM
I went on record in the forum when she skated her short
program that I did not like the music (not that Irina's
is that great either) but that affects the overall feeling I get from the program in general. On the Other Hand I LOVE the long program music (maybe the judges will feel like me)
However this is one of those situations where Irina has nothing to lose and she can throw everything. Perhpas Michelle will too! At any rate the important thing to me is that she did her best and if that's not good enough so be it. You can't win everytime, but you can certainly lay them in the aisles. Irina also has the advantage of having skated her DQ program much longer and will be more secure,but this should be interesting to watch.

Terri Mommy to a 4 year old Violinist

November 3rd, 2000, 01:40 PM
If Michelle was to lose to Irina any time this year, this is the event to do it. It's early in the season and it'll give Michelle the motivation to attack, attack, and attack. I think Michelle's technical ability as just as good as Irina's. She just doesn't do what she's capable of doing sometimes. Irina has everything to gain, and Michelle in a way has everything to lose. A lot of this is a mind game. Michelle has to remember to JUST DO IT! and not think so much.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:46 PM
I don't think I saw a 5.5 on the tech mark on the live scores. I do think the judges just stated what they thought of Michelle's presentation vs Irina when they both skate clean and they are now sending that message. She had better scores at SC last year when she did a 3 toe. Go figure.

Hopefully Irina and Michelle will skate clean in the long and then we will know where Michelle stands for the rest of the season. I was prepared for the overall win to go to Irina but not the short for the reasons I stated.

Shell4mk-I'm sorry this doesn't please you but you had to know that it was a great possibility that Irina would be the one on top. Even though Michelle's the current world champion I kind of suspected that Irina might be the favorite. I can't imagine them deeming Michelle as the only favorite in this competition.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:54 PM
I'm not too bothered by Michelle's results at this competition. I actually think Skate America was more important because she had to send a message that the other American girls aren't passing her up. Here, Irina and Michelle are co-favorites so as long as they finish 1-2, I don't see either of them losing a lot here by finishing second. I think it's more important that Michelle is on her game after the new year at Nationals and Worlds. It would be nice for either lady to win here and gain momentum but the real prize is months away.

November 3rd, 2000, 01:54 PM
I'm not really upset that Irina won the short. Her spins are better and it sounds as if the jumps were even, except with the 2L in the combo jump. Michelle definitely has better spirals though and I guess there is more weight put on spins. But some of the scores still seemed low for a clean skate, especially the Hungarian judge :( . I wonder about the footwork?

I too saw both shorts at the Masters and felt that even with all clean jumps, Michelle's was better. Maybe it is a cultural difference/preference, but I thought Irina's arm movements to *wavy* and the overall program a little immature (not sure it's the right word)? Still, it is a technical program, so they went with Irina.

Don't get me wrong, I like Irina, but I love Michelle :) !

November 3rd, 2000, 02:02 PM
5.6 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.6 5.5 5.7
5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8
11.4 11.4 11.5 11.5 11.4 11.5 11.4 11.3 11.5
2 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2

5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.8
5.8 5.7 5.6 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.7 5.9 5.9
11.6 11.5 11.4 11.6 11.5 11.7 11.4 11.7 11.7
1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1

November 3rd, 2000, 02:05 PM
Do you really think Michelle is just as good as Irina in the jump department. I do think Michelle can execute those jumps in practice sometimes but it won't count if she doesn't do them in competition. She is just not consistent enough with the hard combos.

Where is this 5.5 score you guys have been talking about? I didn't see that score on the live scoreboard.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:08 PM
The second from last technical score from MK is 5.5.

I am extremely grumpy and ticked off by this result. I just don't really like Slutskaya's skating (yes this is true confessions here). The qualities I appreciate are all on MK's side.>: I feel like quitting as a skating fan right now.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:11 PM
Thanks Lavender. I could see it coming, but I think I've been in denial. I totally agree about Irina being the favorite. I'm not upset by anything Michelle has done, she's still my favorite skater and probably always will be. I just see her scores going down now from year to year and I can't understand it. I guess I just look at the skating differently. I know I haven't even seen the skating, but the results are something I was dreading, because I thought they might be something like what they are. I know it's not over, but I'll be very surprised if Michelle wins (and ecstatic). Sorry for rambling and making it sound like the situation is dire, just how I feel right now.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:15 PM
Ays: I just have to add I know exactly how you feel. You just said everything I was trying to say only much better and shorter.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:16 PM
Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if Michelle lost to Irina in this competion, especially if both are clean. It could only provide motivation for her. If Irina is consistently doing a triple lutz/double loop in the short, maybe Michelle will upgrade to the same. If the judges are sending a message that they prefer Irina's style and technique, then now is the time for Michelle to get it. This is her last major competion for a while and she can concentrate on her training. I am sure she has a plan for the season. I am surprised that she is not getting higher scores because she is current world champion. Well whatever happens, it can only make Michelle stronger. She has definately toughened up over the last few years. Good luck Michelle.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:16 PM
What was that Hungarian judge thinking???
That's the second time a Hungarian judge marked down Michelle without a reason.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:19 PM
I totally feel the same as you but I guess I was trying to prepare myself. I can never fully do that. Don't feel like you're rambling because you not. At least not to me.

The scores really really bother me the most and I feel they still should be closer. It's not so much the placing. I wish I knew how Michelle felt about her scores. Hopefully she doesn't feel the way we do.

Thanks for the correction of the scores. I thought it said 5.8. Boy was I way off.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:20 PM
Don't quit! How then can you see the beautiful skates that Michelle will give us (and I KNOW she will)? Have faith!

November 3rd, 2000, 02:28 PM
I haven't seen the programs so this is nothing but speculation. It seems to me the writing is on the wall for MK. Assuming MK isn't getting any deductions, if she is skating clean and is getting 5.5 and 5.6, it seems like they are willing to leave her off the podium altogether if 3 or more people step up and skate well enough to come close. I had the same feeling at Worlds last year. Some of those scores were low enough to put everyone from MK's group AND the previous group above her.

I have also been wondering if the "message" the judges are trying to send MK is not just on the jumps, but on the programs itself. We've all read enough of the "obscure junk" posts and we all know that there are lots of people who don't like anything that isn't off the "General Classical Music Hits" CD or from the perky, smiley presentation school. I don't see why that group wouldn't include judges. And MK has been really straying from the mold the last two or three years. For the long programs, Irina's DQ plays directly into that while MK's Black Swan goes directly in the opposite direction. And the skate order sets it up for one of those storybook overtaking-the-leader victories at the end.

Don't mind me, I am just thinking out my butt and being my usual obnoxious self. It's just that I would hate for the judges' last impression of MK before the "big" competitions to be "technically and presentationally stale". Is it too much to hope that MK did a really bad flutz or lip or her spins were way out of wack to warrant the full .3 deduction and not that the judges think the clean program is only worth 5.6?

Well, the competition isn't over yet. Ice is slippery.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:35 PM
I can't answer for AYS, but for myself I have faith that I will see great skating still to come from Michelle. It's the judges I have no faith in.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the support Sharon and shell4mk

Put it this way...the judge that gave MK 5.5 in technical gave Fumie Suguri....5.7!!!!!! Another judge gave them both 5.6. I'm not understanding this >:

November 3rd, 2000, 02:44 PM
lp at worlds 2000, MK skated first and they left room , but in the end the judges called the right decision.
About music selection etc, who knows.I think if MK wants to continue to use relatively uinknown music she should skate more ISU events and lt the program grow on the judges. EVen judge Inman said as per KetihB that MK's programs a lot of times underwhelms him but then it grows on him.

It is all about risk/reward for jumps for music etc
A piece of music like TRV last year has more risk but the potential reward is greater. I am certain that there are judges who are willing to take the time to learn the music and really try to go to as many practice sessions as possible to get the feel of a skaters programs, and I am sure there are judges who are not as willing to do homework like that. For the latter, I speculate music like DQ are much safer.

I have been screaming about the lp music for the last few days, and will not repeat it here. MK's current lp music choice again has high risk, and I hope it will give her high reward.

I recommend you to read Klier99's thread on Dvorak piano trio "Dumky". in MK chat :)

November 3rd, 2000, 02:46 PM
Your welcome AYS :) ! shell4mk, I question the judges too, but the only thing I can do about that is ferverently hope that the skating gods make everything right in the end, but failing that, I judge her programs for myself, and I can be honest! Even though 6 of the judges thought she didn't win the '98 Olympics, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> I<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> thought she did :D ! But I thought Irina won the last program of the GPF, so she deserved the gold there.

November 3rd, 2000, 02:53 PM
This is a bit disturbing!
What are these judges looking at?
MK obviously did enough here with the difference of MK's 3Lutz/2Toe to IS's 3Lutz/2loop.
Yet some judges gave IS as high as 2 tenths more over MK! I don't agree with that at all.
Frank should really protest with the refere here.

I guess, you have to take into consideration that these are different sets of idividuals than at SA?

Plus, this is back to the old questions. Do they rotate the judges for these events or do they use the same old tired ones over and over again.

Actually, I'm not too worried with MK standing as long she is in the top 3 going into the Long program.
as for the GPF, i didn't like the format at first but now i think it's great! It lets a skater let loose technically in the final match up. Which means that a skater can't hold back and be cautious if that person wants to win.
Iím a bit tired of watching MK not going for her 3toe/3toe in her long program as planned. She needs to go for it!
Yeah, the thought of music of choice such as modern vs classical has entered my mind too. I think that also might the case. The conservative judges will mostly likely to go with a traditional classical style rather than a rock or pop stuff. Which is really too bad.
There are some great modern and contemporary music that skaters can experiment with.
I think these judges need to open up their minds a bit. The type of music shouldn't matter as long as it is good and appropriate to the skaterís style and interpretation. Believe me there are some really bad and boring classical stuff! How many times do I have to listen to Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet! or generic movie soundtracks! LOL

November 3rd, 2000, 03:00 PM
The scores of 5.5 and 5.6s does kind of look fishy. The odds were against MK at Worlds too when she received a 5.6 from the Hungarian judge and relatively low scores for technical elements. Especially considering that she gave arguably the best performance of any skater that year!!!! I got the feeling that the judges really wanted to give the gold to someone else. Though it is just a feeling and not based on anything.
Remember last year, when MK gave consistent but lukewarm performances last whole season up until World's? And then she seemed to improved dramatically when she skated at Worlds. And everyone's eyes were REALLY opened on how MK's skating at Worlds was nothing like her skating the whole season. And it gave us perspective that school was a HUGE factor in the level of her performances. Perhaps it is the same this year. Perhaps the 5.5 is a reflection of the lukewarm performances recently since everyone who saw her at Worlds last year knows she is skating under potential this season.

November 3rd, 2000, 03:06 PM
Folks, just as people shouldn't have jumped to any conclusions before seeing Sarah and Michelle skate at SA, we shouldn't jump to any conclusions here. Its quite possible (*gasp*) that Irina simply out skated Michelle today. Its also possible that Michelle didn't have enough revolutions on one of the spins and took a deduction for that, she was slow, or that she had a tweaky landing on something that the average spectator wouldn't see but the judges would catch -- that wouldn't result in an outright mandatory deduction, but a lower base mark.

In any case, as long as Michelle is reasonably pleased with her performance at this point, I'm happy, win or no. Another clean performance to add to my videotape collection. Yippee. We can't and we shouldn't buy into this mentality so prevalent on other boards that its victory or nothing. Nor should we be essentially behaving like those golfers who insist that anything but a Tiger victory is a judicial plot or signs of favoritism. We're better than that, and we know better than to do that, and we should all remember that it ain't over until the proverbial fat lady sings, and well, if she doesn't, that's OK, too...

November 3rd, 2000, 03:25 PM
It's the actual scores that scare me. If MK gets scores like that at Worlds next spring, she won't even make the final group. :( Like I said, I just hope MK did something wrong in her program and that the program itself is worth more than 5.6.

Well, at least no one can blame the USFSA conspiracy this time. :b

November 3rd, 2000, 03:28 PM
Point well taken. It doesn't change the way I feel, but you're right that we shouldn't fall into that. I see a trend happening, whether it's the judges or something I don't understand in the skating. But, as a Michelle fan I find it disturbing.

November 3rd, 2000, 03:32 PM
I just went back and reviewed the tape. IS is MUCH, MUCH faster in her spins. She DID travel a lot but if she managaged to clean that up along with the 3z/2l I can see why the scores would have been higher than Michelle's.

The speed in the spins is very aesthetically pleasing as well; hence, the higher presentation scores.

I'm discouraged because I just don't know what Michelle can do this season to match the ante. Her lutz is solid as is her toe but she's faultered on all the others this season.

Does she have a 2l to tag onto the lutz? Seems like the only thing she can do is plan a 3z/3t in the short which if it's not solid will kill her chances. Is it possible that she intended to do this at this competition then changed her mind? I just don't get why Paul Martini would say what he said if she hadn't.

Still, if she's gonna go for broke in any year, this one is the one to do it in. Maybe with some losses on true attempts she may get some successes as well and really be confident next year.

Anyway, that's what I would say to her. She's already 3-time World Champion...she doesn't need another one. She needs confidence in her program and the only way to get that is to keep trying no matter what the outcome.

I know she'll come through. I just feel the growing pains right now.

November 3rd, 2000, 03:47 PM
Yes Michelle had a clean program with a 3flip and yes she got a.5 some 5.6's and some 5.7's. Realize however that both Fumie and Galina landed the same jumps as Michelle and their technical marks are for the most part in the low to mid fives. This obviously implies that Michelle's quality is above most others and that if the judges wanted to push Michelle down in the rankings then they would have placed both Fumie and Galina ahead of her. But they didn't. There is no conspiracy, if there was we'd see Michelle sitting in 4thight now.

November 3rd, 2000, 04:06 PM
From the scores it looks as though Michelle (Presentation wise) was received the same across the board. My question would be in why some Judges gave Irina 5.9's it can't be just the spins. One thing that really stands out to me is Irina's pumping as she does things as basic as stroking around the ice. What about edges, stretch, line, footwork? It does seem some Judges did give her 5.7's which would be in line with my thinking. However I think Michelle should not make any drastic changes in the Short, she has gone head to head with Irina's short program before and those judges (who were just as qualified as these) gave her the nod. You can't please everyone all the time.
I say skate your heart out tomorrow Michelle! The ice is slippery for EVERYONE. You can only give your best and were
behind you 600%

Terri Mommy to a 4 year old Violinist

November 3rd, 2000, 04:24 PM
I have seen this pattern before......I give 99.9% chance
of another Kwan win...:)

What ever happens...she is still a legend....:)

November 3rd, 2000, 04:26 PM
If you add up the presentation marks across the board for MK and IS, MK actually comes out one tenth ahead of IS on presentation. That bodes well for the LP for MK, I think. She still can come ahead of IS on presentation overall. the tech mark discrepancy is the problem I guess. perhaps spin speed, height of jumps come into play but also her bad luck at having to skate first might have taken a tenth away. Hopefully, mk can pull off a wonderful LP. regardless of the final result, in my book mk is far ahead of IS on presentation all the time. IS's style just is too choppy and forceful for my taste. It always looks like a lot of work and doesn't have a light, smooth feeling. I'm a complete MK fan and cannot force myself to be happy about anyone else but her winning. I will be crossing my fingers.

November 3rd, 2000, 06:23 PM
Good point Lizard. Irina's presentation scores are more variable. At least the judges are in agreement about MK's presentation scores.
I don't mind that MK is in second place but those technical scores bother me, especially considering that she was clean! Ah the perils of "holding down the scores."
MK, just LET IT GO and skate freely! Don't hold back!

November 3rd, 2000, 06:36 PM
"certainly, as far as presentation wise, I don't think you can compare Irina Slutskya to Michelle Kwan"


November 3rd, 2000, 07:12 PM
Okay, this has been said before, but I'm going to say it again. So Michelle is lacking motivation, huh? Well here's some motivation, then! Michelle had lower technical scores than Irina -- nothing new. But now, she's also down (from some of the judges) on the presentation scores as well. What, then, is the writing on the wall, and can Michelle read it? YES, I believe so. This is a warning letter. Michelle needs to know that she cannot just rely upon her artistry to pull her through, because apparently some judges don't think her artistry is that much better. How they can think this, I have no earthly idea! But their blunt message is clear, and they're driving the point home.

In addition, Michelle has been trying to expand her horizons artistically, but some of the judges don't appreciate that. After last year's reception of "A Day in the Life" and now "Rush," I would think that Michelle, Frank and Lori should begin to sense that the judges just aren't buying the rock and jazz-influenced music. They obviously like classical ballerinas, and if another skater delivers a clean interpretation of this, then they will overlook Michelle and do this. It's a choice Michelle has to make: Either follow your heart and what you know is best for a growing artist, or do the same-ol' same-ol' stuff that the judges want. Hmmm... Well, ultimately it's the judges who decide who and what wins. Just as you can't change other people, you can't change the judges. It's sad, but true. So if you want to win THEIR game, you have to give them what THEY want. Later (as a professional -- if Michelle ever does turn pro), when you don't have to depend on these ISU judges for your titles, THEN you can do what YOU want to do. It's a matter of survival. You have to know who controls the power and who controls your marks or your paycheck. It's their game/business, and you just have to play by their rules if you want to win their approval.

So now what does Michelle have to do? \

Problem: She realizes the judges don't like her pop/rock/jazz musical selections.
Fix: Give them classical ballet music. They like that and will score it well.

Problem: She doesn't have the time to work on faster spins and loop combinations.
Fix: Make time or pay the consequences.
--An education is important to Michelle, but she has to make the choice. You can't have it all, and as her father told her, "something has to give." It's not a popular statement, but age certainly often carries its wisdom.

Maybe winning this season isn't as important to Michelle as college. Then so be it. It's her life and her future, so she'll make the right decision as to what's best for her.

Next year is the big one for her at the Olympics. So give a little here and there this year, and then focus more next year when it's more important.

I'm rambling, too, so I'll summarize here again.
If Michelle wants to win with the judges, she has to give them what they want: conservative classical music, harder jump combinations, faster spins with more stretch and holding out the positions longer. No questions asked. This is what they want -- give it to them, or prepare to be "penalized."

Harsh, isn't it? This is good for Michelle. She needs some incentive to improve -- EARNESTLY. Nothing will get this message across to her better than some sound LOSSES to eliminate any doubt.

November 3rd, 2000, 07:37 PM
Hey Rene, I don't remember that quote. When did Dick say that? It does speak the truth.

November 3rd, 2000, 08:06 PM
Dick said that at Worlds 2000 after Irina's short program.

In my mind, even if the judges do not like this style of program from Michelle, Michelle skates for Michelle and not for the judges (despite it being an ISU short program marked by the international judges). If she feels that this is the style she wants to pursue, then so be it. I'm very impressed with this young lady.....all the criticism she faces. With a classical, balletic program, she would be criticized for playing it safe, not upping the ante. With a refreshing short program like she has this year, she is criticized for being too versatile and sacrificing marks for that. Michelle's main flaw (which is not really a flaw) is that she is Michelle Kwan, the finest ladies skater in the world. With that comes the burden of expectation, critics with never ending cheap shots. The main thing is that when the time comes and she needs to hit those difficult jumps, she never fails. Despite what the judges mark her as or what the skating world might otherwise think, Michelle Kwan is her own skater and she skates for herself (and her fans). How many skaters these days are held up to such high expectations as this woman is? Despite the 5 years that she has dominated elite skating, she has never ever really gotten her due, whilst other top athletes are often held up despite programs that do not deserve such high acclaim. Michelle's biggest challenge is that she is Michelle Kwan --- and that's why I love her so much.

November 3rd, 2000, 08:39 PM
After watching the ladies' SP, I have to say, Irina also had more difficult footwork. Irina's straight line footwork were mostly on one foot. Her speed was better, but her flow out of the jumps was not as good as Michelle's. This is the first time I saw Michelle's SP this season. I think Michelle really had a good skate. I now am worried about how Michelle can up the ante in her SP. Maybe she have to master her footwork first and increase her speed in the spins. After that, maybe Michelle have to try 3lutz-2loop??

November 4th, 2000, 12:31 AM
Ok. So it's a lot of on one foot...that doesn't necessarily make it more difficult. In fact I recently slow-motioned the entire circular footwork sequence and it's some of the most complex stuff she's done in a short program. I'm gonna bump that post up sometime soon. This is what I don't understand though. Michelle has NEVER under-rotated a spin in the short program. NEVER. She always does at least 2 revolutions OVER the mandatory amount, 8 on the layback and flying spin and the six revolution thing on the combination spin for each foot. So I really don't see that. Since I haven't seen this program yet, or how each of them skated, but head to head from the masters (Taking into account Irina's 3lutz/2loop) this is how I would see it.

Combination Jump: Advantage Irina
Footwork into Jump: Advantage Kwan (Her footwork is, believe it or not, more difficult)
Double Axel: Advantage Irina
Step Sequence: Advatage Kwan
Spiral Sequence: Advantage Kwan
Layback Spin: Advantage Irina
Flying Spin: Advantage Kwan (Death Drop back sit is harder than a flying camel)
Combination Spin: Advantage (I'd say Kwan but more than likely it is a tie)

So I can see no reason why the scores for Michelle were so low except for the fact that she skated before Irina. As for presentation, Michelle has more speed across the ice, better ice coverage, and her program is choreographed better. The first three elements of Irina's short are the jumps and that's not usualy a good thing (From a judging point of view) as it loads the program in the beginning and tends to make the rest just look too plain. Kwan would have the advantage in the presentation as well. So I must revert to my previous (And most commonly used) analogy that the judges are smoking crack rock yet again.

November 4th, 2000, 04:34 AM
Did Irina have a loop or a flip as her solo jump? I read that she had a loop on the Skatefans list.

November 4th, 2000, 08:42 AM
I just reviewed my tape from last night ladies' SP. Irina did a 3flip out of footwork. Michelle had more revolutions on spin than required. I found Michelle's 3lutz a little underrotated (1/8 revolution short maybe). That's what I saw using slow motion. If not using slow motion, I just found the landing was not as good as it could be. Michelle's circular footwork was good but could be better too.

November 4th, 2000, 08:48 AM
From MK's quote in one of the articles yesterday, it appears that the lutz was one of the elements that she herself thought might have been a problem. That and the layback...presumably meaning the speed of the layback.