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View Full Version : Weiss..6.0??? what is going on? (eom)



DianeO
February 12th, 2000, 01:08 PM
Tim was robbed.

kwanette
February 12th, 2000, 01:12 PM
got 5.7's and 5.8's for being hunched over, not skating to the music, then I say Michael's presentation was a 6.9!

lyraangelicamk
February 12th, 2000, 01:15 PM
Someone please tell me what happened!!! I had to come to work and I have no idea what has happened. I got to see Tim skate and I was so happy that he was able to land his jumps! Help. pls keep me informed!! thanks!

ykchan
February 12th, 2000, 01:21 PM
Weiss missed his quad on the first jump and did a triple toe loop instead. As a result, because he did three triple toes in his program, he got slight deductions on his tech marks (one 5.8 and the rest 5.6s and 5.7s I think). However his presentation marks lifted him up - he got one 6.0 and the rest 5.8s and 5.9s. Six judges for Weiss, three for Goebel.

ykchan
February 12th, 2000, 01:22 PM
...i forgot to add, Michael did land everything else, including two triple-triple combinations.

Rene
February 12th, 2000, 01:25 PM
Wow, it starts here in a few minutes.

Terri
February 12th, 2000, 01:27 PM
Tim blew Mike out of the water.

Lara F
February 12th, 2000, 01:27 PM
My theory is that the judges really want to see Goebel improve his presentation further, and felt that denying him this championship - even with three quads - was the best way to get him to do that. Hopefully it'll turn out for the best in the long run - this should certainly get Tim to think twice about spending the entire summer working on quints!

Karin
February 12th, 2000, 01:28 PM
I thought it was wonderful!!! I think the judges told us with the men that jumping is not everything...there's all the other stuff too... Weiss was clean!!! I just thought overall Weiss was more mature and had much much more presence!!! BUT I could not decide between who I thought should have won!!!...hard to say!!! Great job and 2 thumbs up for the both of them!!!

viking12
February 12th, 2000, 01:28 PM
tim

lyraangelicamk
February 12th, 2000, 01:28 PM
Thanks ykchan for the info. What does everyone think? Did Mike or Tim deserve to win? I guess I'll make my own decision when I get to see it. What about the commentary? What did Tim and Michael say? AAAAHHH, I wish I could have see it already!

Crazyglue
February 12th, 2000, 02:01 PM
however, Mike did have the overall presentation.. I was completedly awed by Tim's quads and triple jumps.. I was screaming 'yes' to all of them.. it was amazing!! But if you re-watch the lp, you see that he is lacking severely in presentation... if tim won, then it'd be saying, sure, jumps will get you the medal.. who cares about presentation, or the artistry? Then, theoretically, all Michelle needs is harder jumps, and disregard the artistry, right? I don't agree with that.... On the other hand, Weiss wasn't spectacular.. he didn't dazzle us with any quads.. but his triples were really clean, and his presentation was definitely better than Tim... I think Weiss deserved this win... but i hope that Tim will concentrate more on his artistry in the future...I root for Tim all the way!!!

Crazyglue
February 12th, 2000, 02:02 PM
I don't think Weiss deserved the 6.0 in presentation...

SkateFan007
February 12th, 2000, 02:09 PM
You know what, no one besides Dick Button is really giving Mike the credit he deserved for his terrific performance. He's my hometown boy here in Fairfax, and it's really nice to see someone with the all-round performance win for once (besides MK). Tim was totally not robbed (although I could've seen the title go either way). Tim doesn't have any good presentation, at least yet, and it's really nice to see that the judges looked at presentation to make their final decision. Congratulations Mike!!

Beth2000
February 12th, 2000, 02:15 PM
Plus I think the judges were sending Tim a message that is saying that you are just not ready presentation wise just yet keep working on it. I was proud of them both and really happy to see Tim land all those jumps. Remember the lp is suppose to be about presentation not techinal. I think the judges are finally waking up about time!

Googoo
February 12th, 2000, 02:35 PM
What's eom? Well I enjoyed both men a lot. I was clapping for Tim when he landed the quads. I was also happy for Mike and I really liked his presentation. I would have given Tim 5.9/5.7 and Mike 5.7/5.9

Shallah
February 12th, 2000, 02:45 PM
and decent spins but otherwise his skating is very lacking. He needs LOTS more work on the rest of his skills and presentation over all. Tim would have gotten high technical scores but Mike would have gotten my presentation marks for having a well rounded program that was performed well. I even forgave him for using Carmen for a few minutes there! ABC sports has their poll up on ESPN on who had the best long program in the Mens here: <A HREF=http://espn.go.com/skating/10judge/men.html >http://espn.go.com/skating/10judge/men.html </A> So let 'em know what you think! They also have a message board for FS on their site now.

Jordi
February 12th, 2000, 02:55 PM
Sorry, but I personally do not like Goebel's skating (or lack thereof) at all. I am beyond thrilled to know the win was given to Weiss, because his skating is of vastly better quality. For once the judges have given me a glimmer of optimism about the state of the sport. I would love to see international judges take notice of this, and also begin recognizing more than just jumps.

Cy93LMG
February 12th, 2000, 03:31 PM
I agree with Crazyglue's assessment. I loved it that Tim nailed the jumps but it seemed to me he was just skating from element to element. His tech marks were fantastic but his presentation marks were less than stellar but accurate. Weiss was the other way, his tech marks were okay, his presentation marks spectacular. He definitely had better presentation. Three judges picked Goebel to win. I hope Tim does better next time. I was cheering for him too. But I agree that Weiss deserved the win. googoo, eom means end of message. You put it in the subject when you don't type a message to go with the subject. TTYL

KeithB
February 12th, 2000, 03:42 PM
...because some idiot at Channel 7 here in Washington kept cutting to snippets of a golf tournament during Michael's performance. I am guessing it happened locally because I have not seen a peep about it in this thread. I had the pleasure of seeing him in a public practice session on his home ice last week, and I agree his presentation was marvelous. I was pleased to see the judges give well balanced evaluations of the two programs. Keith

Rene
February 12th, 2000, 03:52 PM
I glad Mike won because the judges were counting presentation AND tech. As Michelle fans we've been screaming about this for a long time. I look at it this way: Mike was furthur ahead in presentation than Tim was in technique. So Mike should win. Does that make sense?

Lara F
February 12th, 2000, 03:56 PM
Have flashbacks to Nicole Watt during Weiss's LP LOL? I do give him credit for a well put-together program (superior to Mulan IMO).

KeithB
February 12th, 2000, 06:55 PM
Channel 7 apologized for the foulup and showed Michael's LP in full right after the ladies' final. Keith

sw10025a
February 12th, 2000, 08:45 PM
Once again, my theory that US national judges tend to go for the cleaner looking but less technically demanding program seems to have borne itself out. Of course, the irony here is that the judges really haven't done the USFSA any favors by giving Weiss the nod over Goebel. The reality of the senior international circuit is that the men live and die by the quad today. The international judges have demonstrated clearly over this season that they value the impressive quads, quad combos and jump sequences over the more subtle intangibles like line, extension, edging, choreography. Fact one: all of the men who hope to be in the top three after the worlds SP will have to at least attempt the quad in the short program. Fact two: all of the men who hope to be in the top three after the worlds SP will have to attempt a 3axel-3toe or 3axel-3loop combination in the SP. Fact three: the majority, if not all, of those top three SP finishers will do both (1) and (2) cleanly. Fact four: Weiss has only landed one clean quad in his entire competitive history, whereas Goebel landed three times as many as that in this one night alone, ergo, that difference in consistency, in conjunction with the fact that Weiss has had limited training because of his injury, makes its quite reasonable to predict that Goebel is far more likely to hit the quad and 3-3 or 3-3-3 combo of the two skaters. Weiss most likely would need a relatively clean quad and 3-3 combo to place in the top 3 at worlds, and given his track record, its unlikely. By placing him over Goebel, the skater who is significantly more likely to meet the quad and 3-3 standard for the SP, and could more realistically be in gold medal contention, the US judging panel is giving the international judges a signal that Tim is the inferior skater, and that its OK to job him on the presentation marks, even when he jumps phenomenally well. Sort of a license to discriminate for those who are looking for an excuse to do so.

kjesse
February 12th, 2000, 10:26 PM
I don't think Tim was robbed on his presentation marks. His quads were wonderful but I felt Michael's overall skate was better. How many men are the US sending to world? 1 or 2?

galadrielle
February 13th, 2000, 05:17 AM
Michael Weiss performed Carmen well. Definitely one of the best male version of Carmen I've seen. BUT A PERFECT 6.0 FOR PRESENTATION LEFT ME FLABBERGASTED. I've always enjoyed his presentation, sure. He's an ambitious skater and capable of great things. But I'm sorry, I must agree with Diane that SIX O was definitely strange. I appreciate beauty and grace in skating as much as anyone out there and I've been crying foul at the judging trends that favors jumping at the expense of overall skating quality. But here I must protest on that SIX O. Please! Even 5.9 would have been generous, IMO. Yes IMO!!!! If international judges were deciding the match up, it would have gone to Timmy. I would have given the gold to Timmy. This isn't to say that come Worlds Michael wouldn't outskate Timmy. Michael is capable of beating Timmy because he's no slouch in the technical department either, and add that to his impressive presence and you have a remarkable skater in the making. But last night, Timmy outskated Michael. I thought Michael's scores were overall a teeny bit inflated. I guess that comes with the respect due a defending champ, and perhaps the judges were trying to send Timmy a message about cleaning up his lines and overall quality, but I still can't help feeling that it's unfair to use SCORING as a method of advisement. You judge what's out there on the ice. Period. And I'd have given it to Timmy. And no, Michael wouldn't have gotten a 6.0 from me. I like Michael's skating A LOT. I even like watching his children on TV and think it's kinda nice how he's so proud to be a daddy and all. But Timmy should have won the gold. JMO

lavender
February 13th, 2000, 10:21 AM
mike-clean triples, combos and presentation. Best all season. The 6.0 was a stretch. goebel-guads and triples. No line or stretch. This was the best skate of his life though. I thought that it was no way mike would win. I'm glad that it wasn't all about quads. I hate that skating is turning into a jump fest. It should be about the overall package. Todd would have won the same way as mike did yesterday. Mike should thank todd for the example he has given.

Buffy
February 13th, 2000, 01:41 PM
I went to the men's competition rooting for Tim, but when Michael was finished I was so moved that I was hoping he would have it. I have watched my tape and I can tell you that Michael's performance lost some of its pizazz on t.v. It was the best performance I have ever seen from him, even without the quad. His facial expression, his speed, the cleanliness, his wonderful line - it just all went together beautifully. Don't listen to Dick about the audience being in shock. The audience went wild for Michael. Everyone around me - all from Cleveland - even agreed with the judges. As exciting as Timothy was, he didn't move the audience like Michael did. His applause was every bit as generous as Timothy's - standing ovation and all, which really surprised me since it was Timothy's hometown. Michael is an all around skater and Timothy is the jumping bean. Just like with Michelle, the more difficult jumps don't always matter. I love Timothy and once he develops that type of presentation, he will leave everyone in the dust, but right now his presentation is very flat.

sw10025a
February 13th, 2000, 09:27 PM
I'm not saying that Goebel should have had higher presentation scores, or that he should even have had some 6.0s for technical merit (no way), my point was that Weiss' technical marks should have been lower. And that 6.0 for presentation was patently ridiculous. That program may have been performed relatively well, even with energy and excitement, but there didn't seem to be any emotional connection, only skating through the music, and the choreography was pretty bland. I think many people, including some judges, confuse energy and a skater's own excitement about their performance with actual presentation and artistic skills.

Armchairskater
February 14th, 2000, 06:19 AM
I didn't quarrel with the final result. Tim's scores on presentation seemed inflated (with his focus on landing the quads, he seemed to have forgotten to mind his posture. I've seen him skate the program this season with better fluidity, line, and posture, though falling on a quad or two), while Michael's were on the technical and that 6.0 for presentation. Therefore, I could have seen giving Tim 5.9s on his technical and 5.6s an the presentation and Michael 5.9s on the presentation and 5.6 on the technical and under current rules the artistic mark is the tiebreaker, which would have given Michael the win. I just wish each man had been given honest marks, because giving Michael 5.8 technical marks against a man who had just gone out delivered a clean quad-triple and two other quads was a farce. Technically IMO, Michael's program should have started from about there and then taken the mandatory deductions. The other thing that disturbed me was that entourage that Weiss brought with him. It struck me as if he was perhaps trying to impress upon the judges that he should win due to his personal connections (though I do not know if the Weiss family really has any influential connections). I agree with sw10025, however, that the result was disappointing in the sense that I think that Tim is more capable of landing on the World's podium this year than Michael (not just because of his failure to complete clean quads in competition, but because of the horrible showing in front of the ISU judges he made in the Grand Prix, from which he should have withdrawn, due to his injury). However, his silver medal might make them more inclined to give Tim runner-up status in a bronze medal duel between him and Stojko or another skater with quad ability. With the national gold, I think Tim might even have had a shot at World silver, if he was lucky enough for Yagudin to have a mistake-ridden performance. The reality of international competition is that unlike in the U.S., where the quad is just a new trick, the quad has become as expected as a triple axle and with a number of skaters with quads for the judges to choose from, most with superior or at least decent presentation capabilities, Michael is unlikely to be able to medal unless several of the quad-jumpers falter (and we know that Plushenko almost certainly won't and Yagudin probably won't, but both would probably be held up if they did). We've already witnessed Todd Eldredge being robbed in ISU competions this year, just because he's not a quad boy, and Michael doesn't even have Todd's stature. That said, I was thrilled with Tim proving that he could do it again, that Skate America was not a fluke. I was jumping up and down and screaming after the third quad. I appreciated the segment in which the sports doctors discussed Tim's jumping abilities and endurance in comparison to that of basketball players and track athletes. That should shut the mouths of anyone who questions that skating is a sport. I think his silver medal is going to shine more brightly this year, due to those quads, than Michael's gold and I'm already seeing the media attention going Tim's way. As long as he keeps working with Lori Nichol, I think that we are going to see Tim's presentation come up to match his technical. Remember what she did with Michelle. I also want to award Tim a gold medal for sportsmanship, for the maturity with which he handled losing out on the gold and choosing to attribute it to the need to improve his presentation, rather than accusing the judges of unfairness. Maybe he is mature enough for our Michelle afterall? ;)

Googoo
February 14th, 2000, 07:50 AM
Tim was on GMA this morning. I taped it and will tell you guys about it later when I get home. Um what's wrong with Mike having his parents and kids and wife at Nationals?

Armchairskater
February 14th, 2000, 08:43 AM
Googoo, Obviously, you didn't hear or read the media reports that he had 60-some friends and family members there. Do you remeber Dick Button speculating several times that it must be distracting? It caused some raised eyebrows. That wouldn't seem so surprising if Michael hailed from Cleveland as Goebel does, but since they had to travel, one would have thought Michael was getting married. It bothered me, because it conveyed a sort of "it's in the bag" message, as if there was some inside knowledge there and it looked even worse when the judges appeared to be propping up Michael in the short.

Buffy
February 14th, 2000, 01:18 PM
o.k. o.k. we think Michelle should win when she doesn't have the more difficult jumps but has far better presentation, but Michael shouldn't???? The Michael/Tim thing is very similar to Michelle/Sarah or Michelle and Tara. Tara had the harder jumps, but most people here don't think that she should have won the olympic gold over Michelle. What if Sarah skates a clean long with two 3/3 combos and Michelle skates a clean long with no 3/3 combos, should Sarah win???? Sarah's presentation is not bad (really pretty decent). Should Michelle lose because Sarah had more difficult jumps? I have a feeling that many of you that think Tim should have won because of his quads would not feel that Sarah or Tara should win over Michelle with 3/3 combos. Why shouldn't Michael's technical scores be as high as 5.8? His program was technically sound. There is no deduction for not having a quad. Timothy also steped out of his combination, otherwise, maybe he could have gotten a 6.0 or two for technical, but I seriously doubt it. I think the 5.9's are the perfect mark for Tim - giving him the bonus for the quad. However, his technique on his spins is not very good, so he shouldn't be getting 6.0's. Michael got a high of 5.8 (that was the HIGH) for executing some wonderful triples with no real deductions except maybe a two-footed landing (I couln't quite tell) on the attempted quad that turned to a triple. Plus, the technique on his spins and footwork were very nice. I really like both skaters, but I do think Michael had the better night. Like someone else said, this is a figure skating competition, NOT A JUMPING COMPETITION. It seem like so many are contradicting themselves, for the ladies it shouldn't be a jumping contest, but for the men it should - this is not right!

Googoo
February 14th, 2000, 02:22 PM
Armchariskater-- sorry didn't know he bought 60 people. Interesting...

KwanBoy23
February 15th, 2000, 03:04 AM
Just to clarify to some of you less informed fans on the net and all. That's my job. I know you are justifiably upset about the marks but lets put it this way. FOR TECHNICAL MERIT Mr. Tim Goebel could pull off 8 quads and land every one of them half-*** or quarter-*** and the guy who lands 8 solid CLEAN triples will win every time. The technical merit mark not only includes the number and difficulty of jumps but how well they are executed, the height and distance over the ice, good speed going into and out of the jumps, and a clean strong secure landing on an outside edge. Tim may be a jumping beab but his technique is far from a 6.0. FOR PRESENTATION Presentation is the fickle one here. But I'll break it into laymans terms. Presentation accounts for speed over the ice, complete coverage of the ice surface, complexity and difficulty in step and spiral sequences, the use of the music in relation to the choreography (But mind you NOT the choreography) the flow from one element to the next, line, extension, flexebility and expression within the program. Presentation, quite frankly, doesn't give a rat's *** whether you connect to the audience or not. It's about the program itself. And if you can't understand that, pick up about 25-30 skating books like I have, read the material like I have, and stop *****ing when you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. But I hate people who are uneducated about the sport and ***** anyways!

sw10025
February 15th, 2000, 12:08 PM
Thank you for appointing yourself in charge of sanctimoniously chastizing the ignorant masses. On behalf of all us "uneducated" laymen and "less informed fans", thank you for taking out so much of your precious time to set us straight. We know you must have an awfully tight schedule what with having to read all those skating books that have made you SUCH an expert. We are all perfectly capable of reading and regurgitating the ISU rules and regulations just like you did. However, given that those regulations and guidelines are communicated through language, through words and phrases, those bits and pieces are subject to differing interpretations, points of view and emphases. All language is subjective. "Harmonious composition with the music" will most likely mean different, possibly materially different things to different individuals. You might know that if you had read a few books on the structure, meaning and interpretation of language in addition to all those skating books. With the exception of yourself, I don't think anyone here posited themselves as an expert on figure skating. What people were expressing here were their own personal opinions, preferences, interpretations re what constitutes "expression of the music within the program", for example. If choreography is listless, unoriginal and insipid, for example, can it truly express the dramatic, empassioned, staccato passages or the romantic lyricism of Bizet's music? Since you have made no claim to have read several dozen books on musical interpretation, you're most likely not qualified to make such a judgment call. One more thought: reading skating books even in quantity isn't going to make anyone an expert on figure skating, anymore than reading cook books will make you a gourmet chef or owning a large collection of fine literature will make you a literary critic. But it does go to show that a little knowledge can be very dangerous. If you were quite as clever as you seem to believe you are, you'd know that not all knowledge comes out of a book. Nor would you be as crass in your careless and ignorant insulting of these posters. A number of people who post on these boards were skaters, are skating, have taken lessons, have children who are being coached, or have been following the sport for literally decades. Many of these people have had years of personal experience in the sport and/or decades of observation of eligible figure skating under their belts. While reading can be a great learning mechanism, its beneficial qualities can be tempered by the inferiority of the source materials (as well as the inability to recognize them as such), the analytical and interpretive limitations of the reader, and most importantly of all, by the reader's own inability to perceive the equal value of wisdom, years of observation and personal participation, not to mention a free and open exchange of ideas and thoughts. My suggestion for your next book: Miss Manners.

rcl
February 15th, 2000, 01:13 PM
I'll be the first to admit I'm an ignorant mass-member, and KwanBoy needs etiquette class and a chill-pill. I thought Tim should've won. I thought Tim was marked fairly but Weiss was over-marked on presentation. I found his presentation stiff and uninspired and it didn't seem like he was really interpreting the music. I would've marked Tim 5.9/5.7, and Weiss 5.7/5.8 (that includes the deduction for doing three triple toes).

Beth2000
February 15th, 2000, 02:37 PM
Hey rcl long time no see. Where have you been hiding lately in your deathstar? LOL! Googoo- also from what I read over at fsw Mike also took his child for a victory lap after they received their medals and I guess his child had chicken poxs! That from what some people said was a "no-no". Not my words other peoples.

rcl
February 15th, 2000, 02:45 PM
Yes Beth2000 I have been safely tucked away in my Death Star where I watched the Nationals with a big bowl of popcorn in front of my big-screen TV. If Weiss' kid had chicken pox, that kid should've been home in bed with a sitter. He probably spread pox to a bunch of unsuspecting fans.

rcl
February 15th, 2000, 02:46 PM
Also I've been nursing my mambo sinus infection in my cozy Death Star.

Beth2000
February 15th, 2000, 03:02 PM
rcl yes the child should have been home, but if the child wasn't there as someone pointed out then Mike would have critized for being an uncaring father. Not my words. Sorry to hear you don't feel well. I have never had a sinus infection and doesn't sound found.

Rene
February 15th, 2000, 03:39 PM
6.0 for Technical and 6.0 for presentation.

Armchairskater
February 15th, 2000, 04:47 PM
I think sw10025 and others have let you know what they think about your personal attack on persons posting on this board. Furthermore, truly educated and informed people have vocabularies that go beyond "***" and "*****". They consider other people's opinions and try to learn from other perspectives and respect the opposing viewpoints, if they cannot agree with them themselves. Nor do they describe skaters of whom they are not fans in vulgar contemptuous language in a deliberate attempt to offend. (And yes, I have never used vulgar language to describe her, but I will from now on personally refrain from speaking negatively of Maria Butyrskaya lest I be accused of hypocrisy and be more careful of criticisms of other skaters that might offend their fans.) However "half-assed" you may think Mr. Goebel's quads (and he would not have drawn so much public acclaim and admiration from his colleagues for his quads as well as rising technical marks from the international judges if they were not generally of good quality--most of the criticism of his technique has focused on his posture and his non-jump elements), I have never heard a word from him that would make me think him less than gentlemanly and sportsmanlike unlike yourself. He has put in years of hard work to perfect the quads you despise and is striving to improve his presentation, just as Mr. Weiss and Michelle have poured years of hard work into those areas where they excel, but have areas where they must continue to improve to remain at the top. All deserve our respect. In any case, I would prefer to have a "half-assed" quad if that is what Mr. Goebel has than to display myself to be "half-brained" thinking myself superior to the rest of the human race. Regarding accusations of hypocrisy on the part of persons on this board, I have seen none. Most of the people on this board and Michelle herself recognize that she needs to up her jumps to triple-triple combos of greater difficulty than the triple-toe/triple-toe just as we observe that Mr. Weiss needs a consistent quad to remain competitive. Those are the realities of international competition and increasingly of national competition, however we feel about the increasing emphasis on number of jump revolutions. If Michelle's artistry does not outweigh in magnitude the technical superiority of another skater, then she deserves to lose. It is not heresy nor does it make me less of a Kwan fan to admit that. However unfair many of us thought the format of the GPF, most of us agreed that Irina Slutskaya deserved the win in that final program. Where's the hypocrisy there? Similarly, until you stuck your nose into it, the rest of us were discussing civilly whether we believed this to have happened in the Weiss-Goebel match up. Some thought that Weiss' superiority in artistry was of greater magnitude than Goebel's technical achievement, others that they personally gave the edge to Goebel, and some like myself thought it a toss-up that could only be decided by going back to the rule books you so revere. Even those who vented a strong personal opinion without supporting it did not resort to abusing those with they disagreed or vice-versa.

Buffy
February 16th, 2000, 11:52 AM
Armchairskater, Regarding accusations of hypocrisy... I assume you are, in part, speaking to me about my post saying that people are contradicting themselves concerning the men and ladies. Please do excuse me for "sticking my nose in it." The last I checked this was a board that includes the right to freedom of speech. I was in no way being un-civil or abusive. I am only stating facts about previous posts on this board. I was only pointing out that many have said (including myself) they felt that Michelle should have beaten Tara at the Olympics due to Michele's superior presentation even though Tara had the more technically difficult program - and relating this point to Tim and Michael. If this is being abusive I should definitely be given the death penalty.

Beth2000
February 16th, 2000, 12:37 PM
No Buffy you are not being abusive in any way. I totally understand in what you are saying. When you say it it comes out like your bashing but your not bashing. I have try saying the samething and people just take it the wrong way. Oh well. I really do understand what you are saying.

Armchairskater
February 16th, 2000, 12:48 PM
Buffy, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I apologize, I did confound a portion of your much more civil post with Kwanboy's because the two were close together and I disagreed upon a point or two. However, let us disagree amicably. (And yes, by the way, I would have given Michelle the nod in 1998 on the basis of presentation and other technical elements, because I felt that Michelle's superiority in those ways outweighed Tara's triple-triples, so we are in agreement on your main issue. What I was saying was that if a skater went to the labor of mastering triple-triples or quads and, then went to the risk of applying several in a program though it could backfire and cause a fall, then the favorite came out and skated much more conservatively in the jumps though with a slight technical edge in the in-betweens and slightly more artistry, then the win should rightfully go to the challenger rather than the favorite. I personally do not believe that happened in Michelle's match against Tara in 1998, but did with Slutskaya, so I disagree with the judges in the one case and agree in the 2nd, because the technical gap was wider in Slutskaya's case and the presentation gap narrower. The Weiss-Goebel match up was more interesting, because one was overwhelmingly superior in terms of jumps and the other in artistry and form, so I doubt there can ever be a consensus on who really deserved to win, perhaps both did. I therefore do not think that there is a contradiction at all between believing Michelle should have had the gold at the 1998 Olys and Goebel at the Nationals, even if you do not agree with the latter opinion.)

Buffy
February 16th, 2000, 02:14 PM
Armchairskater, No problem, here! I had a feeling most of your post was strictly aimed at Kwanboy. Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. I agree that both were very good and both probably deserved to win. I would have been happy with the outcome either way. I have no desires to put down anyone, just to look at as many views as possible. In fact, I loved Goebel's program and I think he is definitely the future in US skating. I am glad about this, I think he will be a great role model!

Armchairskater
February 16th, 2000, 03:12 PM
Thanks for accepting my apology. I'll be much more careful from now on to keep posts straight. I think Timmy already is a role model. He appears to be a very good sport. I think someone remarked in another thread that his coach, Carol Heiss Jenkins, could do with some lessons from him in that area! Some skaters you like less and less whenever they open their mouths but so far I like him more and more.

KwanBoy23
February 17th, 2000, 12:48 PM
Ok. Now I will be the first to admit that I did go off on a little tyraid about how marks are given and what it's all bout kinda got lost in my outrage of some of the posts. First let me say that I am sorry if I got on your cases. What I was trying to let you know is that there is a reason why when MW skates clean he gets 5.8's and 5.9's across the board for presentation and TG when he skates clean only gets 5.5's to 5.7's with a 5.8 or two. The whole post came off to many of you as a bash (It was not intended as such) and I am sorry if many of you took it that way.

What I was trying to emphasize is that we cannot judge the judges all the time and say they were wrong and someone else was robbed. Personally I think Tim should have one but his presentation is severly lacking! He needs to unround those shoulders, skate with more posture and speed and his program needs to look less sloppy. I am not an *expert* on the sport but I do know why most of the time these marks are what they are. To sw10025 in particular, yes I overdid it and I'm sorry. To rcl, yes the etiquette was off and the chill-pill is coming. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

Also to sw10025, to clarify just a bit. When it comes to skating I've been following it for 10 years, skating it for three, taking lessons from friends at my rink for 6 months and I am a music major who's been playing various instruments since age 5. I do know music and the effect of individual tastes and likes and dislikes. While a program may be boring to us these judges have been doing this for a length of time that probably surpasses my lifetime or yours. They have a reason and let's not be so mad they do what they do unless it's WAY out there.

The crazy posts from me will end. I was just hoping to get a little info across so maybe all of us will be a little less opinionated and look at things from a more perspective too.

But from just the fan in me, Tim kicked Mike's @$$!! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

KwanBoy23 and the unofficial holder of the book "Why The Judge's Smoke Crack Rock Once and a While"

skatingfan5
February 28th, 2000, 09:35 AM
I must agree with Buffy -- and a few others -- that Michael Weiss totally deserved his win over Tim. While I won't argue that those quads were impressive -- who can argue with that?!?! -- in a way they served to highlight the weaknesses of this rest of Tim's program, especially as skated in Cleveland. I thought that his Skate America performance had it over Nationals, presentation wise. So much of it seemed to be aimless skating around, leading up to his next jump. I think Tim was so fixated on landing the quads, that when he'd done it, he couldn't concentrate on really skating his program. Michael, on the other hand, was totally in command of his presentation (if not 100% on his jumps) -- when his attempt at a quad was backed down to a triple, I knew that he would have to land everything else cleanly -- AND really be "on the money" with his presentation. And he was!!! His timing was impeccable -- not to mention that he hit two 3-axels (one just barely), which is more than Tim did (only one, with an extra turn or two on the landing for his combo). And one thing that doesn't come across at all on TV is coverage of the ice (also speed) and Mike had it over Tim in both of these areas. While the 6.0 was excessive, the 5.9's certainly weren't -- he fully earned them. And I will also concur with Buffy that Terry Gannon was totally off the mark when he said that the crowd was "stunned" that Weiss won. If they were "stunned" it was because they had seen two such great, but very different, free skates. When Mike finished his "Carmen" the crowd exploded with a standing ovation -- he certainly had impressed them -- and six of the judges as well. Tim was very gracious in his interview afterwards -- and I'm looking forward to seeing him develop a presentation level to match his jumping ability. After all, both Yagudin and Plushenko have reliable quads -- and a much, much higher presentation level. If Tim hits 3 quads at worlds, but the rest of his skating is at the level it was in Cleveland two weeks ago, I would be very surprised if he were on the podium. The international judges reward technical ability -- but all things being relatively equal, they are looking for more than just quads. (Though it seems like at least one will be needed to be on the top step at Worlds.)