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pumpkin5
August 4th, 2000, 05:51 AM
I captured it from Euro Sports when she was competing at Worlds!

us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e...6AdpAJIhNO (http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/e138d86d/bc/MK+at+%2700+Worlds/back+charlotte.jpg?bcBVx16AdpAJIhNO)

Victoriacai
August 4th, 2000, 06:03 AM
nice pic!:)

Liz D.
August 4th, 2000, 10:25 AM
Great picture! :D

kwanluv
August 4th, 2000, 10:51 AM
Very Nice 8)

gratefulmkfan
August 4th, 2000, 10:52 AM
Very nice picture. Thanks for feeding the hungry :) .

TripleLutz
August 4th, 2000, 12:36 PM
Ohhh...pretty

SJB
August 4th, 2000, 01:02 PM
at that incredibly difficult swan-dive (i.e., no hands) entry, with greater and greater speed, leg extension, and length of time the position is held. All these improvements indicate increasing balance and strength on her part.

She's really made the move hers.

rda
August 4th, 2000, 04:01 PM
Hmmmm - looks like the baby ballerinas aren't the only ones with flexibility, huh? You can't get a whole lot more vertical extension than that, especially with no hands! WOW!!!

Lara F
August 4th, 2000, 05:31 PM
Michelle absolutely doesn't lack in "backward leg" flexibility (which I most definitely do - even Maria B. has a much better extension LOL). It's only in the spins that the baby ballerinas can top her, which is a different type of flexibility...and it's all comparative besides.

Googoo
August 5th, 2000, 03:51 AM
Amazing! The only way I could get my leg up that high is if someone were to physically move it (while I scream)and hold it in the air lol.

SJB
August 5th, 2000, 07:08 AM
about why MK's Charlotte is so great, because it's the one (and only) skating-type move that I practice, and her command of it amazes me.

I practice this position during yoga, it's called Urdhva Prasarita Eka Padasana, or One Leg Stretched Out Pose.

This is *not* a flexiblity pose, in that it's not getting a high leg position that makes this move difficult---it's a strength-and-balance-demanding pose.

So, for ex., while I'm flexible enough to have no trouble at all getting perfect leg extension and nose-to-leg position on the floor (i.e., the position that Michelle's in at the end of One More Time), attaining this position while standing requires completely different qualities.

Balancing while vertical, the strength that this balance requires, and the strength needed to move in and out of this position, is light years more difficult, no matter if you are perfectly flexible. Stretched out on the floor in this position, balance isn't a problem, and gravity pulls you into the position without you have to exert strength. I'm *nowhere near* to approaching Michelle's ability in these areas (gross understatement), and her proficiency astounds me.

The beginner's version of this yoga pose is to lean forward, raising the back leg, and holding one's supporting leg with both hands all the way down, to provide balance and to make up for lack of torso strength---your arms holding the leg means that your torso doesn't have to do all the work (those of us practicing yoga also may place our palms on the floor when we're fully bent down, to help balance, an option of course not available to skaters!). Also, the less balance you have, the more you slowly move down into the pose, to compensate. This is how I've seen Sasha Cohen do her Charlotte.

I'm, after some years of practice, not so bad at this--I can keep my balance quite a while, and my leg extension is improving as my strength & balance does. It's *not* flexibility so much as balance, strength, and being able to pull yourself down on your suppporting leg using your arm strength, that allows for high leg extension.

The intermediate pose is something that I can do for only a few seconds, if I manage to get into it at all! This requires what yogis call the swan dive entry--you hold both arms out at your sides (helps balance) while bending forward, and don't touch your hands to anything or use your arm strength to assist at all.

The difference that not using arms for balance and strength makes is incredible. Your abdominal, back, leg, and torso muscles now must control the entire descent of your body and ascent of your leg, and you must have the strength to get yourself into a low body position and high leg extension without *any* help from your arm muscles. I can't get my nose even close to my leg, let alone get high leg extension, without my arms helping, because I'm not near strong enough. Michelle's degree of extension without arm assistance, both of her forward body and her free leg, shows outstanding strength.

As for balance--without your arms supporting you, your balance now depends solely on what your leg and torso muscles can provide, and so I can only balance without arms for a few seconds. Again, Michelle's balance (and she's on skates!), demonstrated by the speed with which she sweeps her body down and her leg up, and by how long she can hold that position, is incredible.

(The advanced yoga pose requires keeping both arms straight down by your sides the entire time--I don't even *try*, and it wouldn't look graceful in a skating program, so I don't think we'll see many skaters doing it either.)

So that's why Michelle's leg extension is getting higher--it's not that she's gaining flexibility (she demonstrated perfect flexibility in the end pose of One More Time), it's that her strength and balance are improving.

Then, instead of dropping her leg to move out of the pose, she displays even more strength and control by going into a back spiral, or into that astoundingly difficult back-arched attitude position at the end of Kissing You.

I'm just amazed by such displays of athleticism. I can only dimly imagine the athletic ability required to do triple jumps, but this pose is one that I'm very familiar with, and I know just how superior an athlete Michelle is to be able to execute it so well.

Well, that's today's gushing. Now I think I'll go practice my Urdhva Prasarita Eka Padasana. :)

skatingfan
August 5th, 2000, 07:32 AM
Is that a yoga term? or skating term, I like it I think I will refer her entry as the swan dive
entry from now on. :)

SJB
August 5th, 2000, 07:42 AM
....it's not exactly a yoga term---there's undoubtedly a Sanscrit name for this entry, which would be the proper yoga term, but I don't know what it is.

But, that's what my yoga teachers have called the no-hands, arms-spread, entry. Perhaps it's a rather free translation of the Sanscrit term.

vive_la_reine
August 5th, 2000, 10:08 AM
Hey, thanks for taking the time to fully analyze and explain this. When I saw Michelle's Charlotte in "Kissing You", I about fell off of my chair. Coming from a place of total ignorance on what the move took, I said to myself, "That move has got to be difficult...How does she do it?"

Well, after your explanation, I now realize, that not only is the move difficult, it is darn near impossible.

You are absolutely right--it takes a phenomenal athlete to pull this off. It makes me want to take all of the people who knock figure skating as a sport, and require that they try to do that move just standing on the floor...you know, no hands into the Charlotte, and the coming out of the move with an arched back and holding it....believe me, they would probably wind up in traction...

It also frustrates me that some folks knock Michelle for doing the "Easy", Triple-Triple combination, and then give her no credit for the difficulty moves such as her Charlotte.

THANKS!

PS--Pumpkin5--Thanks also for the photo. It is an awesome view of Michelle's Charlotte.

skatingfan
August 5th, 2000, 12:38 PM
On second thought, I think I will just call the entry the Kwan entry. Swan dive entry is too long to type. I think MK is the only one who is using this entry right now, why not name it after her. :lol

Shallah
August 5th, 2000, 04:11 PM
SJB All I can say is *W*o*W*! You have given me whole new level of appreciation of the Charlotte spiral as performed by Michelle!

Here is a pic of Michelle doing a Charlotte in her first version of TRV at 1999 Worlds here (http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/photos/allsport/1999/sep/Kwan32899.jpg). She just keeps improving all of her skating every year :-)

Oh and Pumpkin5 could I have your permission to link to that picture on my poll for Who does the best Charlotte? (http://www.freevote.com/booth/shallah53) either as a text link or acutal display of the photo (whichever is ok with you!)???

SJB
August 6th, 2000, 07:28 AM
...I'm glad that my babbling about one of my hobbies was of interest to someone!

I think that the reason that commentators, former skaters, judges, etc., might not give Michelle enough credit for this move is that they haven't got any experience with doing it themselves. It looks like a pure flexibility move--they think

SJB
August 6th, 2000, 07:45 AM
...I seem to have cut off in mid-post.

I was saying, they think "Well, you've either got the flexibility or you don't, and if you do it's a nice demonstration of your flexibility and that's all." You've got to have some practice trying it yourself to realize that flexibility is the *least* of the challenges of this pose.

The picture that Shallah linked to, of Michelle's Charlotte at 99 Worlds, really illustrates what I was saying. You can see that her torso is not bent forward as much, and she doesn't have as good leg extension, even though she's using one arm to help her strength and balance. Also, her back, both arms, and her free leg are curved or not perfectly straight. Both these less-than-perfect positions indicate that her strength and balance wasn't then what it is now.

When you compare that photo to the 2000 Worlds Charlotte, you can see that she has perfectly straight, totally linear, and extremely extended body and limbs, and her leg extension is much better (and she's not using any arm assist!), showing how much strength and balance she's acquired over this year.

GinnyS., ITA about getting peeved when people diss skating as not being a sport, and, you're right, this might be a good way to enlighten them! You can't really say "Well, if *that's* what you think, just try this triple jump and see how difficult it is" because they haven't learned the technique for jumping. But, you *could* ask them demonstrate a swan-dive land Charlotte with a back-arched attitude exit!

You are also right that they would either 1) probably sustain a back injury, or 2) more likely just crash to the ground when their strength and balance fails, and they find that they can't get into the position at all!

Maybe we should make all the judges try it, hee hee (evil grin).

GMAN
August 6th, 2000, 07:45 AM
WOW!!! Thanks for showing it pumkin5!!

vive_la_reine
August 6th, 2000, 11:19 AM
SJB..Regarding your last comment about the "evil" grin. Do you mean something like this...

:evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil :evil

If so, ITA. I love it!!!

pumpkin5
August 6th, 2000, 03:38 PM
Thank you, all guys! I'm so glad you enjoyed it! :)

Thanks SJB for the explanation. I also see her charlotte has improved so much. Comparing hers to that of '99 Nationals, her leg is really straight, not bent at the exit of her charlotte.

QUAD LUTZ
August 6th, 2000, 08:06 PM
I LOVE HER 8)

belladella
August 7th, 2000, 04:46 AM
SJB: Thank s for explaining to the masses the technical difficulties of the Charlotte. You used Yoga as a point of reference while I have experienced similar obstacles in dance. In the opening warm up and stretch part of dance classes we would watch everybody bobbing and weaving because of the balance problems especially in the standing, head to knee position. But - we were holding on to our ankles - in a stationery position - making adjustments and shifting our weight to gain and hold our balance. If we had had to do the "swan dive (Kwan Dive)first most of would have wound up head first on the hardwood floors. Then when we would release the ankles keeping our head on the knee, only the stronger dancers could hold their balance.

I agree with all of you that Michelle's technical skills are underrated. Everything she does just screams of superb, high level, high quality technique. I think the problem is that she makes everything look too easy and everything looks too beautiful. And once Dick Buttons said that she has a throw away style; she takes these beautiful, difficult moves, performs them, incorporates them seamlessly into a program, and then moves on to the next, and the next, and the next. She doesn't play to the audience, and sometimes things go by too fast for the details to be fully appreciated .

Her Charlotte as someone mentioned, at the end of Kissing You, when she bends the extended leg, and arches her back is an "Oh, My God!, movement of monumental proportions, -like none other. That move should be called the Kwan Charlotte with a Kwan Dive at the beginning.

SJB
August 7th, 2000, 07:41 AM
Wow, I'm relieved to hear that dancers, whom I consider to be supremely good athletes, may also find this pose difficult---I thought I was just wimpy and not very good at yoga! :)

Michelle's technical abilities are so often underrated because *few* of the judges or commentators have tried some of her moves, and just don't know what's involved in doing them so effortlessly ("If it looks effortless, it must be so". Yeah, right!).

I would walk over hot coals to see Dick Button attempt even a land Charlotte, and then to hear his commentary about Michelle's execution of it *after* he's had that experience!

And Ginny, yes, that's *exactly* what I meant by "evil grin". Thanks for giving my thought such a vivid visual expression!

Kwanfest
August 8th, 2000, 04:49 AM
gfdgfd

Kwanfest
August 8th, 2000, 05:09 AM
I saw Michelle charlotte live in the Keri Lotion. The first time I saw her charlotte I was awestruck by the beauty of it. I gasp , my mouth drop , I wipe my drool, after recovering from the charlotte shock, I knew then that to do that charlotte must take so much strength, because I rate that charlotte as major ouch factor. Now, just imagine being at the 2000 worlds , it must been a sight to see , to hear the audience gasping roar, I say woowwwww.
Thank you so much SJB for your detail explanation how difficult Michelle charlotte really is. I say take that Uncle Dick everytime he try to compare Sasha charlotte to Michelle. Doing the Kwan dive. I am not worthy....

gratefulmkfan
August 8th, 2000, 10:24 AM
Thank you SJB for your detailed, inspiring explanation of what this move requires. I say inspiring, because it moved me to try this on the floor in front of a mirror. I am very flexible. I'm one of those people that can bend over and touch their knee to their nose with both hands on the floor, and before reading your post, I did think the Charlotte was all about flexibility. I decided to try it the way you explained it - forget Swan Dive. Not only did I look like the awkward, ugly duckling, but my heart was racing as I struggled for the strength to get my leg into anything that looked like extension. Of course, I failed. It really is about strength, and I doubt that many weight lifters could pull one out of their bag of tricks. You've given me a new and added appreciation of The Kwan Dive. Thanks again!

Shallah
August 8th, 2000, 04:06 PM
I **think** this a Charlotte and this *is* Sonja Henie **for sure**! www.zianet.com/jjohnson/sonja/shg38.jpg (http://www.zianet.com/jjohnson/sonja/shg38.jpg)

MK at 1999 Worlds in TRV Exhibtion version: members.xoom.com/Toeloopy...k99wx1.htm (http://members.xoom.com/Toeloopy/99worlds/exhibitions/mk99wx1.htm)

Land Charlotte by MK on the Tonight Show: campus.fortunecity.com/au...kleno3.jpg (http://campus.fortunecity.com/aurora/965/mkleno3.jpg)

Screen caption of Katerina Berankova (CZE) doing a Charlotte - the video clip doesn't appear to work tho: www.jyu.fi/~pijyee/icex/v...lotte.html (http://www.jyu.fi/~pijyee/icex/video/charlotte.html)

Michelle in Ariane doing one: community-2.webtv.net/@HH...ortD20.JPG (http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!9A!32!66D22BB07B2A/melchionne1/page7/scrapbookFiles/importD20.JPG)

Michelle in TWINE doing another: www.geocities.com/Hollywo...rlotte.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/3143/michelle-charlotte.jpg)

Sasha Cohen doing one: www.geocities.com/Hollywo...rlotte.jpg (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Lot/3143/sasha-charlotte.jpg)

Sasha Cohen in 1999 doing another: www.catslair.com/skating/...n1009.html (http://www.catslair.com/skating/1999/nationals/99n1009.html)

Michelle at 1999 Nats doing one: www.catslair.com/skating/...n2310.html (http://www.catslair.com/skating/1999/nationals/99n2310.html)

Michelle at 2000 Worlds: www.iskater.com/photo/2000worlds/22.jpg (http://www.iskater.com/photo/2000worlds/22.jpg)

Video of Michelle doing her Charlotte in Ariane in mov format, you need quicktime to watch it: www.michellekwan.org/aria...rlotte.mov (http://www.michellekwan.org/ariane_charlotte.mov)

SJB
August 9th, 2000, 08:20 AM
This is not to say that other skaters' Charlottes aren't very, very difficult too.

Sasha Cohen is the only other skater I've ever seen doing a Charlotte--except Naomi, once at 2000 Nationals, where she did the forward one, which I really wanted to see because it seems like it would be so supremely difficult. But, of course, the camera director chose to show us the move from behind Naomi, so all we got was a crotch shot (ugh, I wish they'd avoid this), and no good look at her body and arm positions.

But Sasha's is really hard too, and a wonderful display of balance and strength---as GratefulMKFan said, it is *really* hard to get that much extension even with an arm assist. She doesn't hold it as long as Michelle, and doesn't have as much speed, but I noticed that she was getting better at these elements, and she'll probably continue to do so.

She may very likely be able to do a no-hands version, but may choose not to do it, because it's almost inevitable that you lose some leg extension without arms assisting, and it's probably visually more exciting to keep that perfect extension that she shows now.

So, I've got a lot for respect for any skater that can do this challenging move so well as we see Michelle & Sasha (and I hope Naomi, if I ever get a look at it!) do.

Just make sure that, the next time a commentator says "Great flexibility!" when Sasha or Michelle or Naomi are doing their Charlottes, you shout at your TV, "NO, great strength and balance!" :) :)

Sandy
August 12th, 2000, 01:14 AM
thanks shallah for all those links you got for us :) and thanks sjb for the explanations! i have enormous respect now for michelle's no hand charlotte! out of all the pics, i can honestly say that mk has the best one and the most pleasing one to look at! :rollin i hope they name the move after mk soon!

Sandy

Amelia
August 12th, 2000, 07:35 AM
Michelle's Charlotte has always just left me breathless (especially this year at Worlds, good heavens...!), but SJB's explanation really made me understand how difficult it is! Thank you so much. :) Seeing it now is so much more inspiring and impressive, since I know what really goes into it.

CaptCanada
August 12th, 2000, 07:57 AM
What makes Michelle's Charlotte so impressive for me is the speed at which she dives down and the speed she maintains as she travels across the ice. It's such a smooth descent in one fell swoop. I love the way she starts on a back flat spiral with her arms out and just goes down...always with the music, so that the move has meaning and isn't just some "look at me, look at me" trick. The ascent in Kissing you where she goes into a back attitude spiral is also great. And the usual exit where she turns onto a back outside edge into a sort of pivot is nice too. She makes it look so natural, effortless, and part of the program. My favourite Charlotte from Michelle is the one in "Hands" at Nationals.

I would rank Naomi's Charlotte next because she does it on a forward outside edge. She seems to be moving very slowly, however, which is in stark contrast to the rest of her very fast skating so that it really stands out and halts the program. She also uses her arms on her leg to slowly inch her way down. But the forward edge really makes it "treacherous" and I am duly impressed.

Least impressive and attractive for me is Sasha's. Sure the extension and amplitude are great, but it's very slow in terms of travelling speed, the descent itself is slow and laboured, and she is on a flat and stays on one. I also didn't feel it went with that point in her Mendelssohn program. The *position* itself is drop dead stunning and gorgeous of course. But for me, that's only part of the thrill of watching that move. I am sure if you had NNN and Michelle going down as slowly with their arms on their legs, they would achieve a similar position.

No one yet does the move in such a way as to convey the same sense of freedom, flow, and speed as Michelle, and that's why I like hers best.

SJB
August 13th, 2000, 05:45 AM
...about the speed with which Michelle swoops down into the Charlotte position being totally impressive. It looks beautiful, as you say, but to move that quickly and surely, she's showing balance that goes far beyond what even the most advanced yogis of my experience are capable of.

The less balance (and strength) that you have, the more slowly you must move into the pose. I too always look for speed on the descent (as you say, it visually is so much more meaningful), but I'm also gauging the skater's athleticism, and no one comes even close to Michelle in that department.

coolkwan
August 13th, 2000, 09:23 AM
I'm new and completely in awe of her athletic and artstic abilities.

amandadupre
August 13th, 2000, 11:44 AM
Wow! Michelle is amazing! (Like we didn't know before...:) She really takes skating to the next level.

Anita18
August 13th, 2000, 12:21 PM
I am one of those people who tries charlottes in the living room! I think I have the strength to do it, but I sure don't have the balance! I always feel like I'm falling on my head every time I do it; I know I need practice!

Wow! Did you see that extension on the Leno pic? :eek Maybe wearing those heels helped a little bit too, LOL! All I can say is ITA with all of you on why Michelle's charlotte is the best. It's just so smooth and it goes with the rest of the program!

IzzyS
August 13th, 2000, 04:54 PM
Wow! Great pic! It really makes you realize how difficult it would be to do that on the ground, let alone on slippery ice and moving!!! What an amazing element! I hope she keeps it in at least one of her programs this year.

SJB
August 14th, 2000, 06:56 AM
Anita, it took me four years to learn to do it well. :)

Try practicing Brave Warrior pose to improve balance for the Charlotte:

Put your arms straight up over your head. Now bend forward, like in the Charlotte, bringing up your back leg.

But, when your arms and torso and leg are all in a straight line perfectly paralell to the floor (you're bent 90 degrees at the waist) stop and hold for five minutes.

Remember to breathe! Good luck :)

Anita18
August 14th, 2000, 02:42 PM
I have enough balance for the regular spiral (sometimes I can hold it as long as Michelle does - but only sometimes, LOL!) but I think it's the head-and-torso-going-down part of the charlotte that throws me off. I'll try what you suggested. Thanks!

acoma
August 14th, 2000, 06:04 PM
SJB, I think you should submit your explanation of this move to those figure skating magazines (sorry but can't name any at the moment). I'm sure all the judges, skaters, and other affiliates to the sport will have a better understanding and appreciation of the intricacies of this move.

I certainly did after reading your explanation.

Ed123
August 14th, 2000, 06:26 PM
Where did you get that picture of Michelle doing the Charlotte at the Tonight Show? I didn't know Michelle was on the Tonight show just recently. When was this aired on TV?

vive_la_reine
August 16th, 2000, 10:58 PM
All I can say, and I've said it before...Hail, Michelle!
We are not worthy!!!! (Ginny, bowing on her knees, facing Lake Arrowhead in awe....)

We are not worthy....
We are not worthy....

:eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek :eek

SJB
August 17th, 2000, 06:59 AM
Anita, holding Brave Warrior for so long strengthens your abdominal muscles---if you can hold this position for five minutes without wobbling, then your abs might be ready to try One Leg Stretched Out Pose.

When you dip your torso below 90 degrees is when you really need abs of STEEL (or something even stronger, kryptonite perhaps) to maintain your balance. Contract the abs really hard when beinding down, you'll find that the stronger these muscles are and the harder you can contract them, the more balance you'll have.

Work on improving leg extension *after* you can easily more your torso down and hold it with good balance.

Good luck again, I started practicing this pose when I was 39 and I'm now 43, so if you're younger it'll probably be a little easier for you, :) :) :)

SJB
August 17th, 2000, 07:23 AM
...is because Michelle's on the ground instead of on ice, and is stationary instead of moving backward, so it's a lot easier to maintain her balance, thus she can get better leg extension.

mano
August 17th, 2000, 08:52 AM
We're not worthy
We're not worthy

I've been enjoying this topic since it first started 'cause everyone's thoughts on Michelle's Charlotte mirrors my own. She does have the best Charlotte, bar none. When it she first did it at Arianne, I felt a little underwhelmed 'cause I was hoping she would hold it longer. She answered that question with her long Charlotte then melting into a gorgeous split. Then her extension kept getting better as well as her speed and her entrance and exit of it from TRV exhibition/comp, Kissing You, Hands, and TWINE. She's really made that move her own. I wonder if she can do a Kwan Spiral version of the Charlotte?

BTW, SJB, thanks for your wonderful explanations of the Charlotte using Yoga and dance references. I'm sort of a beginner in Yoga myself and have done the Brave Warrior pose. I didn't think that helped in the abs area, thought it only benefitted my thighs, but now that you said it, I'm going to try and hold that pose longer. Just as a stupid experiment I tried to the the Charlotte move from the Brave Warrior pose, swan dive and all, but ended up flat on my back on the floor looking up at the ceiling instead. Methinks I'll try the move again when I gain expert status in yoga or something. But again, thanks.

SJB
August 17th, 2000, 09:15 AM
...to see you, with your three (is it?) heads and your inflammable (I think) hair, swan-diving right into the ground!!

Why don't you just work on your awesome double-Biellmann-position Charlotte instead? Stay with the stuff you're famous for. :)

mano
August 17th, 2000, 10:06 AM
Yeah, it's three heads, SJB, glad you remembered 'cause I almost forgot. The 4th head exploded after '00 Nationals from reading all the "wuz robbed" topics. For the best anyway, since it's easier to balance with 3 heads...I think. But since Rosa is technically my third head, she literally has a mind of her own so she wants to go one way when I want to go another. It makes for a chaotic living, but all in a day's work. But you are right, I'll stick to what I know best.

BTW, I was at risk of losing my other head yesterday too when I visited rssif and read about Michelle's so called "incorrect hip position" or whatever that is in her spiral. I was like, where is SJB to set this guy straight.

Anita18
August 17th, 2000, 10:46 AM
Mano, your head exploded? Gosh, must be painful! Hope it isn't hindering any of the thoughts of your other heads. Don't let Michelle bashings make your head explode! Keep calm and relaxed while counting to ten. That'll help...(come on, breathe with me...)

LOL Michelle having an incorrect hip position? Whatever. I'd like to see those posters keep a spiral position as high as Michelle's even with the "incorrect hip position." What now? First it was the incorrect straddle position that Michelle supposedly did (and it's very hard to hold the leg up in that position, I would think) and now it's the turnout of the hips. Everyone's supposed to turn out their hips when skating. Bleh. :b

Shallah
August 17th, 2000, 12:09 PM
is trying to compare gymnastics to FS? Heh in any case I would like to compare HIS 'hip position' doing a charlotte to MK's!

SJB
August 17th, 2000, 05:09 PM
Actually, the turned-out hip position in arabesque is now sanctioned in ballet, and is used as much as the classical hips-squared position is (I read this in Gelsey Kirkland's autobiography) . So, Michelle's spiral position would be found "correct" (whatever that means) in ballet.

In figure skating, it seems that one hip position is not preferred over the other in spirals.

That was just O/T, FYI, though. I have taken a vow.

taboo999
August 17th, 2000, 07:21 PM
The guy DOES NOT (seem to) know more about figure skating from a hill of beans. I can get more facts right about skating than he can.

Right now he is screaming "wuz robbed" about 2000 Nationals. He can't (read: won't) explain in FS terms except "Kwan is a bad skater. She doesn't carry herself like a gymnast. [Insert Charlie Brown's teacher's voice here]." I can pratically hear his voice in my head when I read his posts. The funny thing is that one of the things he accused MK of doing wrong in her spiral, she doesn't do, however one of the skaters he holds up as being perfect DOES do that.

He pretty much bragged about how he didn't bother to watch MK at 2000 Worlds, yet he knows she stole a medal from more deserving skaters. That sort of tells you what his credibility is.

Jason
August 17th, 2000, 08:51 PM
was on the tonight show after 1999 nationals but before her Disney special (March 5th on ABC as I recall). It was weird because I was going to fall asleep when suddenly I hear a promo "Coming up on the tonight show with jay leno..." so I have the interview on tape. She is very charming but the audience was eeriely silent.

justsk8
August 18th, 2000, 04:58 AM
Jason, could I somehow get a copy of that from you? :)

vive_la_reine
August 18th, 2000, 05:38 AM
ROTFLOL!!!!! :rollin

Actually, I was visited by a UFO last night and all of your hairstyles were the rage among the aliens on board...they loved them, especially the "exploded-head" look.

By the way, (Ginny, still bowing in honor and respect to Michelle--i am not worthy...) speaking of technical difficulty....lets not forget that if Michelle is "Princess of the Charlotte", then Ginny is "Belle of the BellyFlop" as I so skillfully demonstrated with the Smith-Plotz in Lake Arrowhead. To remind everyone, the Smith-Plotz is a somewhat less intentional and definitely less graceful variantion on the "Kwan Dive". However, it takes ribs of steel and extremely flexible lungs to be able to land at a complete and immediate full-stop on your stomach and not slide. We are still trying to figure out how I pulled that one off. Lake Arrowhead ice will never be the same again....I made a real impression....literally!

The nose, chin, elbow, ribs and knee imprints on the far side of the rink opposite the entrance are mine. He tried really hard but the Zamboni driver just couldn't get rid of them. :lol

belladella
August 18th, 2000, 09:07 AM
This topic has gone from the sublime to the goofy and back again. It's been fun reading about it amidst the exploding heads, and the we're not worthy's.

First about the hip turn out rotation in the spiral, it's been acceptable as far as I can remember in dance, and Gelsey does go rather far back.

Secondly abs of steel - boy are they ever important, and just as important is maintaining the body line, so that your entire body is straight as you descend and as you come out of the Charlotte. There can be no round shoulders, no butt-sticking-out, no head-ducked under, no chest caved in.

There is a preparation mantra that every dance student knows. And I am now convinced that every figure skater knows. I used to consider this sheer torture. The first day of dance class when I assumed this position, I was totally unable to move, and when I did move I must have looked like a leotard clad Frankenstein.

OK everybody - let's try this together.

Head up, stretch the neck. shoulders back and pushed down firmly. Stretch through your spine - stretch - stretch, keep that neck long. Don't let the shoulders come up or forward. Now lift the chest and open it wide. Breathe, open the chest wider, keep it lifted, Push those shoulders back. Now suck in the abs. Your abs should touch your backbone (right!), now tilt your pelvis up whle holding the abs in tightly. Flatten that butt. Rotate your upper thighs slighty. Your arms should be strong with soft (?) elbows(in whatever 1-5 position). Relax and control the fingers. Breathe! Expression! Attitude!

Now from this position, skate backwards on a thin steel blade, holding that position swoop down in one piece, extend one leg 180 degrees, touch the ice, hold, then come up keeping the body straight, place both feet on the ice.

You need steely deltoids, pects, and quads.

She makes it look so easy.
We're not worthy, we're not worthy, we're not worthy.

SJB
August 18th, 2000, 09:21 AM
Now Ginny, you keep working on that Smith Plotz, because you're going to need it to remain competitive--you know that everyone else has been pushing the envelope, and you have to up the ante too. (little evil grin face, which I don't know how to make).

belladella, thanks for adding the benefit of your experience in dance! You know, your mantra sounds a lot like my yoga teacher telling me how to get into Mountain Pose. It's interesting to see how all these body disciplines seem to have so much in common! There must be common underlying aesthetic or physical principles in them all.

And, my final word: We Are Not Worthy.....

Lara F
August 18th, 2000, 09:43 AM
SJB - thanks so much for your explanation! I would never have thought of the Charlotte that way, but it makes a lot of sense...so it's a lot more than a terrific flexibility move. btw, would you believe that when I saw Michelle in person last year I was more blown away by the Charlotte than the Kwan spiral??? :)

dynoguy88
January 21st, 2003, 02:04 PM
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dynoguy88
January 21st, 2003, 02:06 PM
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